6 ms·

Real people rarely want war, they all want the same basic things: food and shelter, a good future for their kids, and to live in peace. This is universal over t

Real people rarely want war, they all want the same basic things: food and shelter, a good future for their kids, and to live in peace. This is universal over the whole world, unless they've had their minds poisoned by leaders with their own agendas, be it political or religious. However, most people also don't really care that much about other people, especially in other countries. So they elect people to handle that for them, and then believe what they're told. Mark Twain's quote "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness" seems fitting. With modern tech you can communicate with people all over the world without traveling (I'm in my underwear in Sweden right now for instance), which helps widening the gap between the "liberal elite" and the rest who feel left behind or that their country is taken away from them. One thing that contradicts that in a way is the fact that a majority of the expat Turks living in Europe voted for the new referendum giving Erdogan much more power. More than 63% voted yes in Germany for instance.

agumonkey 10y ago
I have a lot to say to and ask you, but right now I'll say you're right. Nobody wants war, but in most context people don't feel the need to handle their lives either. Democracy re-emerges after wars because the people felt hard and had to suffer and wake up, so now it's obvious and easier to act for peace and democracy. Seems like societies just have a MTBF of 50 years and after that war acts as a reset button. ps: travel quote is neat
- usrusr 10y ago
  > Seems like societies just have a MTBF of 50 years and after that war acts as a reset button. Exactly my thoughts. Now how could we replace overreliance on unrealistic uptime goals with scheduled maintenance?
  - agumonkey 10y ago
    Sure, but what we need right now IMO, is calming shock among populations to reduce pressure/heat/tension all over. Then we can start exchanging peacefully and efficiently, and discuss alternatives. We need to slow down the boat.
    - zachkatz 10y ago
      A big solar flare might do the trick.
- lisper 10y ago
  > Nobody wants war Unfortunately that's not quite true. It is true that very few people want war as an end in itself (though even then there are exceptions) but some people want something else (land, power, eliminating the infidels) for which they are willing to pay the price of war -- especially if they can coerce someone else to do the fighting on their behalf.
mino 10y ago
> More than 63% voted yes in Germany for instance. I also was baffled about the results of the Turkish vote abroad. How is it possible that, in many EU states, they won which such a majority? I would have expected expats to be generally more liberal/globalist/progressive.
- Epokhe 10y ago
  Just want to point out that majority of Turks in Germany(and some other EU states) are labourer immigrants that went there during 1960-1980. If you take United States instead where the Turks living there belong to a more elite class, you will see significantly more no vote. It seems expats are divided in terms of world view according to where they live.
  - fslfkjfdlsfj 10y ago
    +1 Average Turk from Istanbul is way more western than the average labor migrant from 60ies-70ies. Mainly they came from rural areas and without much education to do manual labor (which was great IMO). So "same" people that are now voting for Erdogan in said rural areas today. 2nd-3rd generation who grew up in Europe (local education etc.) don't even necessarily have right to vote in Turkish election.
- ardaozkal 10y ago
  When you don't feel the effects of your vote, you don't care about what you vote. I feel like this was the case of the referendum.
  - agumonkey 10y ago
    Haha, doubly amazing comment. That's indeed a very very possible reason. Same thing happened in France, people not impacted by a new airport all voted for it, people near the landing lanes voted against. Also, there was an article about learned helplessness, how to craft depression into animals by confusing their brain when searching for way to stop suffering. Very similar root cause.
homami 10y ago
>With modern tech you can communicate with people all over the world without traveling Internet used to be a tool that enabled people all over the world to communicate. I wouldn't have spoken a word in English if it wasn't for internet. Commercialization of the Web killed the globalization spirit of the internet. There's no commercial value in connecting people who are in different markets. A Web enterprise does not benefit by showing its customers that they might be holding the wrong opinion. Echo chambers bring loyal customers. Globalization dies a little bit every time a curious teenager sees an error saying: "this content is not available in your country". You are not an average internet user if you talk to the people on a different cohort, you are an elite and elites have always been communicating with the elites.
revelation 10y ago
Uhh, I'm not so sure. Look at all the people on here essentially clamoring for war with Russia over.. uhm, Russia supposedly releasing authentic emails showing their favorite party (TM) to be corrupt? I might have missed some details in all the cold war fervor.

agumonkey 10y ago

I have a lot to say to and ask you, but right now I'll say you're right. Nobody wants war, but in most context people don't feel the need to handle their lives either. Democracy re-emerges after wars because the people felt hard and had to suffer and wake up, so now it's obvious and easier to act for peace and democracy. Seems like societies just have a MTBF of 50 years and after that war acts as a reset button. ps: travel quote is neat

usrusr 10y ago
> Seems like societies just have a MTBF of 50 years and after that war acts as a reset button. Exactly my thoughts. Now how could we replace overreliance on unrealistic uptime goals with scheduled maintenance?
- agumonkey 10y ago
  Sure, but what we need right now IMO, is calming shock among populations to reduce pressure/heat/tension all over. Then we can start exchanging peacefully and efficiently, and discuss alternatives. We need to slow down the boat.
  - zachkatz 10y ago
    A big solar flare might do the trick.
lisper 10y ago
> Nobody wants war Unfortunately that's not quite true. It is true that very few people want war as an end in itself (though even then there are exceptions) but some people want something else (land, power, eliminating the infidels) for which they are willing to pay the price of war -- especially if they can coerce someone else to do the fighting on their behalf.

mino 10y ago

> More than 63% voted yes in Germany for instance. I also was baffled about the results of the Turkish vote abroad. How is it possible that, in many EU states, they won which such a majority? I would have expected expats to be generally more liberal/globalist/progressive.

Epokhe 10y ago
Just want to point out that majority of Turks in Germany(and some other EU states) are labourer immigrants that went there during 1960-1980. If you take United States instead where the Turks living there belong to a more elite class, you will see significantly more no vote. It seems expats are divided in terms of world view according to where they live.
- fslfkjfdlsfj 10y ago
  +1 Average Turk from Istanbul is way more western than the average labor migrant from 60ies-70ies. Mainly they came from rural areas and without much education to do manual labor (which was great IMO). So "same" people that are now voting for Erdogan in said rural areas today. 2nd-3rd generation who grew up in Europe (local education etc.) don't even necessarily have right to vote in Turkish election.
ardaozkal 10y ago
When you don't feel the effects of your vote, you don't care about what you vote. I feel like this was the case of the referendum.
- agumonkey 10y ago
  Haha, doubly amazing comment. That's indeed a very very possible reason. Same thing happened in France, people not impacted by a new airport all voted for it, people near the landing lanes voted against. Also, there was an article about learned helplessness, how to craft depression into animals by confusing their brain when searching for way to stop suffering. Very similar root cause.

homami 10y ago

>With modern tech you can communicate with people all over the world without traveling Internet used to be a tool that enabled people all over the world to communicate. I wouldn't have spoken a word in English if it wasn't for internet. Commercialization of the Web killed the globalization spirit of the internet. There's no commercial value in connecting people who are in different markets. A Web enterprise does not benefit by showing its customers that they might be holding the wrong opinion. Echo chambers bring loyal customers. Globalization dies a little bit every time a curious teenager sees an error saying: "this content is not available in your country". You are not an average internet user if you talk to the people on a different cohort, you are an elite and elites have always been communicating with the elites.

revelation 10y ago

Uhh, I'm not so sure. Look at all the people on here essentially clamoring for war with Russia over.. uhm, Russia supposedly releasing authentic emails showing their favorite party (TM) to be corrupt? I might have missed some details in all the cold war fervor.