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I once had a very senior manager tell me "No, it's fine, we consulted with legal and they said it was technically legal. And PR has a plan for if it comes out!"

by mabbo 10y ago

I once had a very senior manager tell me "No, it's fine, we consulted with legal and they said it was technically legal. And PR has a plan for if it comes out!" or something along those lines. I argued that it wasn't about whether it was legal, it was about whether it was moral. He just... didn't understand what I meant. I soon found other employment. It pays less, but I sleep a lot better at night.

55555 10y ago
Some people literally never develop a postconventional morality. I remember developing to that stage no later than 14 years old. It's pretty strange. I have also noticed, dissapointingly, that some people never seem to ask themseves moral questions. I think a room full of people in suits serves as a heuristic that tells them that someone else has already asked the requisite moral questions. This is partly how you end up with a city of 100,000 expats working for the government of Saudi Arabia, etc. Imagine living there. You could probably go years without anyone ever having a discussion about morality.
goodcanadian 10y ago
"Technically legal" is a pretty poor form of legal protection, anyway. Judges aren't computers; they are human beings who are free to interpret (within reason). Lots of people have wound up on the wrong side of the law because they convinced themselves that what they were doing was OK because of some technicality.
- mabbo 10y ago
  I basically said that I won't be the "rogue engineer" like at Volkswagen. If the management are willing to demonstrate that ethics aren't important, why would I imagine they wouldn't use me as a scapegoat?
  - dvtv75 10y ago
    That is a very good point. At my work if you work more than 8 hours in a day, they just won't pay you for the extra. It looks bad on reports, and doesn't matter if the job must be completed by midnight you still can't work 12 hours on paper. What you have to do is split off anything you work in overtime, and put it on the next day's time sheet. Legally, if your time sheets are inaccurate, you open yourself up for all sorts of legal action including significant fines and imprisonment, so what they've done to cover themselves here is require you to sign it as a true and accurate record of your hours worked. (They refuse to pay you if you don't, which in turn is illegal.) I think I will follow your example, and find myself another job in a business that follows a basic code of ethics.
    - oddlyaromatic 10y ago
      >sign it as a true and accurate record of your hours worked. This is small print on timesheets anywhere I have worked. The point is that they have something that department of labor can see where employees asserted that the hours reported are correct. That's all DOL cares about if they check. It they are coercing employees to falsify time sheets DOL will have strong feelings. Record your hours independently and have those records ready for side by side comparison. After you leave for a better job, consider reporting their illegal practices so that hopefully others will no longer have to put up with it either. It does not help anybody to have a long history of lying on timesheets. ... Is this timesheet rule in writing anywhere? This would halo help a lot. Sorry I'm really interested in this. I'm a manager and I make sure my team records everything they are possibly entitled to be paid for because I'm a reasonable human being. End of rant ;)

by mabbo 10y ago

55555 10y ago

Some people literally never develop a postconventional morality. I remember developing to that stage no later than 14 years old. It's pretty strange. I have also noticed, dissapointingly, that some people never seem to ask themseves moral questions. I think a room full of people in suits serves as a heuristic that tells them that someone else has already asked the requisite moral questions. This is partly how you end up with a city of 100,000 expats working for the government of Saudi Arabia, etc. Imagine living there. You could probably go years without anyone ever having a discussion about morality.

goodcanadian 10y ago

"Technically legal" is a pretty poor form of legal protection, anyway. Judges aren't computers; they are human beings who are free to interpret (within reason). Lots of people have wound up on the wrong side of the law because they convinced themselves that what they were doing was OK because of some technicality.

mabbo 10y ago
I basically said that I won't be the "rogue engineer" like at Volkswagen. If the management are willing to demonstrate that ethics aren't important, why would I imagine they wouldn't use me as a scapegoat?
- dvtv75 10y ago
  That is a very good point. At my work if you work more than 8 hours in a day, they just won't pay you for the extra. It looks bad on reports, and doesn't matter if the job must be completed by midnight you still can't work 12 hours on paper. What you have to do is split off anything you work in overtime, and put it on the next day's time sheet. Legally, if your time sheets are inaccurate, you open yourself up for all sorts of legal action including significant fines and imprisonment, so what they've done to cover themselves here is require you to sign it as a true and accurate record of your hours worked. (They refuse to pay you if you don't, which in turn is illegal.) I think I will follow your example, and find myself another job in a business that follows a basic code of ethics.
  - oddlyaromatic 10y ago
    >sign it as a true and accurate record of your hours worked. This is small print on timesheets anywhere I have worked. The point is that they have something that department of labor can see where employees asserted that the hours reported are correct. That's all DOL cares about if they check. It they are coercing employees to falsify time sheets DOL will have strong feelings. Record your hours independently and have those records ready for side by side comparison. After you leave for a better job, consider reporting their illegal practices so that hopefully others will no longer have to put up with it either. It does not help anybody to have a long history of lying on timesheets. ... Is this timesheet rule in writing anywhere? This would halo help a lot. Sorry I'm really interested in this. I'm a manager and I make sure my team records everything they are possibly entitled to be paid for because I'm a reasonable human being. End of rant ;)