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Sometimes though, information denial is more of a pain in the ass than a gain. For all the intelligence directed at Nazi Germany during WWII, the outcome of th
by run4yourlives 16y ago
Sometimes though, information denial is more of a pain in the ass than a gain.
For all the intelligence directed at Nazi Germany during WWII, the outcome of the war was decided by a few Russian snowflakes, really.
- InclinedPlane 16y agoBS. Sure, the Russian winters harmed the German war machine greatly, but it's not as though that alone was the sole determiner of the outcome of the war. Even had the winters been milder the Russian forces would still have taken a heavy toll on the Germans and were nearly guaranteed to win that conflict by benefit of logistics alone. Moreover, even had Russia fallen to Germany the American/UK military might by 1945 was far too great even for a Germany backed by the natural resources of Russia to withstand. By mid-1945 the allies had put together a machine in the Pacific theater in the form of bombers, submarines, and combined forces capable of razing cities, ravaging shipping, and conquering territory at an incredible rate. It would have been perfectly possible to direct some or all of that apparatus at an unbowed Nazi regime in mid to late 1945 through 1946 and visit utter devastation on Germany until it was incapable of fighting any war. And this is sans nuclear weaponry, factoring those into the equation merely accelerates the end of this hypothetical war. Such a war would have been even more brutal than WWII was, but the outcome would not change.
- balding_n_tired 16y agoThe UK military might was pretty strained by 1944. It was with great reluctance that the British agreed to an invasion of France in 1944.
- tokenadult 16y agoSource for this statement?
- DCoder 16y ago> had Russia fallen to Germany How do you define "fallen"? I'm pretty sure Germany didn't have enough forces to destroy all the Russian production centers in, and to the east of, Ural.
- InclinedPlane 16y agoWell, sure, this is why this is a hypothetical point. The likelihood of Germany having survived the battles on the Eastern front was low, the likelihood of them actually conquering Russia even lower.
- sliverstorm 16y agoMother Russia teams up with Mother Nature
- eru 16y agoThe convoy system in the North Atlantic also made a huge difference. Imagine Britain and the US shut off.
- tokenadult 16y agoA really exciting book about this phase of the war, which will be of interest to any math-oriented hacker, is The Pleasures of Counting by T. W. Körner. http://www.amazon.com/Pleasures-Counting-T-W-K%C3%B6rner/dp/0521568234 http://www.amazon.com/Pleasures-Counting-T-W-K%C3%B6rner/dp/...
- eru 16y agoIndeed. And not only about this phase of the war, but also about Cholera and the dimensions of the Egyptian pyramids and much more. (Now that I live in Cambridge, I should really go and try to mee T.W. Körner.) From the author's website (http://www.dpmms.cam.ac.uk/~twk/ http://www.dpmms.cam.ac.uk/~twk/): "Next let me remind you that The Pleasures of Counting is still available from all good bookshops. Longer than `With Rod and Line Through the Gobi Desert', funnier than `The Wit and Wisdom of the German General Staff' and with more formulae than `A Brief History of Time' it was voted Book of the Year by a panel consisting of Mrs E. Körner, Mrs W. Körner, Miss K. Körner and Dr A. Altman (née Körner)."
- tokenadult 16y agoYes, the book is laugh-out-loud funny in surprising places. Miss K. Körner is quite a fine mathematician in her own right. http://nrich.maths.org/2756 http://nrich.maths.org/2756 http://www.math.harvard.edu/people/KornerKatherine.html http://www.math.harvard.edu/people/KornerKatherine.html
- eru 16y agoIt's a shame that `The Wit and Wisdom of the German General Staff' doesn't exist.
- 16y ago
- tokenadult 16y agothe outcome of the war was decided by a few Russian snowflakes Not by cracking Enigma? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptanalysis_of_the_Enigma http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptanalysis_of_the_Enigma And remember, "the war" was also being fought in the Pacific, also with a spectacular imbalance in cryptology strength between the Allies and the Axis. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_naval_codes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_naval_codes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_%28cryptography%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_%28cryptography%29 In general, code-breaking had a lot to do with the outcome of the war. http://www.cs.virginia.edu/jillcrypto/ http://www.cs.virginia.edu/jillcrypto/
- mixmax 16y agoThe allied shooting down of Japan's commander in chief, Isoroku Yamamoto, was based on breaking the Japanese naval codes and attests to your point of view. From his wikipedia article: He died during an inspection tour of forward positions in the Solomon Islands when his aircraft (a Mitsubishi G4M "Betty" bomber) was shot down during an ambush by American P-38 Lightning fighter planes. His death was a major blow to Japanese military morale during World War II. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isoroku_Yamamoto http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isoroku_Yamamoto
- rabidgnat 16y agoRejewski and Turing's Enigma cracking accomplishments were staggeringly significant, but they won nothing. If the Allies bombed every submarine that radioed a position, the Germans would have thrown the machines into the ocean. The Enigma let the Allies stack the overall war strategy in their favor, but it was far from over. I do agree that brainpower won the war - our cryptology was stronger, resource management between the Pacific and European fronts was superb, and the Allies had a knack for picking battles and battlefields where they could excel
- cabalamat 16y agoWhat decided the war in the Pacific was that the USA had vastly more industrial capability than Japan. Even if Japan's leaders had made all the right decisions, and America's leaders done everything wrong, America would still have won any protracted war between the two countries.
- cema 16y agoBy a few snowflakes? And by tons of blood.
- nooneelse 16y agoTo any Russians reading this, as an American, I say, pay no attention to that little joke, please. I'm very grateful for the service of your forefathers. Our countries and our peoples have had our differences of opinions in the years since, but not so many differences and not so many years have passed that we have forgotten the price you paid. If ever another evil empire arises (that isn't one of the two of ours, I suppose) I hope you'll have our backs again. Especially in winter, as I'm not one for the cold, and you seem fantastic at it.
- euccastro 16y agoIANAR, but if I was I'd be offended by the comment on the snowflakes and vindicated by the recognition that many people gave their lives to defeat Germany.
- cema 16y agoI am a Russian, but I was not at all offended. I just feel that the topic is a bit too serious for an offhand joke.
- eru 16y agoYes, it probably is too serious. And the Soviets were about as disgusting as the Nazis [1]. (Not to mention how the Chinese communists turned out.) War makes strange bedfellows. [1] They were still brave soldiers--probably on all sides.
- arethuza 16y agoWell said, my father was in the RAF in WW2 and he always made it very clear to me that in his opinion it was the bravery and sacrifices of the Soviet people that were mainly responsible for the defeat of the Nazis. Of course, when I was younger and the Soviet's were the "evil empire" it was difficult for me to believe this. Now, having read a lot of military history, I share his view.