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>Our Site:1 speakers are lovingly handcrafted. We make them one at a time, to our customer's desired spec, [...] If all goes smoothly, this process takes about

by jasode 10y ago

>Our Site:1 speakers are lovingly handcrafted. We make them one at a time, to our customer's desired spec, [...] If all goes smoothly, this process takes about six weeks. >Amazon relentlessly pushed us to accept lead-times that were typically only four days, and sometimes demanded fulfillment of orders in as little as 24 hours--including delivery. Amazon is not really an appropriate distribution platform for 6-week custom-made-to-order products. Maybe there's another well-known retail site that caters to that type of vendor but it certainly isn't Amazon (or Walmart). One way for Princeton Audio to become compatible with Amazon's short lead times is to run some sophisticated projections (e.g. "demand planning") on the most likely customer combinations[1] and build an inventory of those ahead of time. (Sell semi-custom on Amazon with immediate delivery but fully custom on Princeton's own website with 6-week wait.) However, that requires a big capital investment -- and the hassles of managing inventory. [1] PA's website shows 32 possible combinations (4 woods x 4 metals x 2 batteries) so maybe prebuild and sell only the most popular 3 configurations on Amazon.com https://store.princeton-audio.com/products/site1-bluetooth-speaker https://store.princeton-audio.com/products/site1-bluetooth-s...

stcredzero 10y ago
Amazon is not really an appropriate distribution platform for 6-week custom-made-to-order products. Seems like there's a place for such a website. There are quite a number of things like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSR8wKQ-TEU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSR8wKQ-TEU Maybe there's another well-known retail site that caters to that type of vendor Massdrop? However, this requires a different set of adaptations from manufacturers that some might regard as "compromises."
ssambros 10y ago
> Maybe there's another well-known retail site that caters to that type of vendor but it certainly isn't Amazon (or Walmart). Massdrop is a possible alternative. They have a thriving audio enthusiast community and long fulfillment times for custom/semi-custom orders are not uncommon.
zelon88 10y ago
And the risk of keeping inventory value that you're never going to sell. Amazon takes their speakers, but will never send the unsold units back. Making expensive speakers according to MRP projections with no reliable demand is a time-bomb for a small company like this one. Especially if they're already unsatisfied with Amazon's performance, why would they risk thousands of dollars worth of product for no reason? It doesn't seem like they're trying to scale-up to be Bose. They seem to just want to hang out, make money, and make diesel speakers.
- Dayshine 10y ago
  https://services.amazon.co.uk/services/fulfilment-by-amazon/winning-with-fba/faq.html https://services.amazon.co.uk/services/fulfilment-by-amazon/... >Requesting a Removal Order (Return or Disposal) of Product Units >What is a removal order? >It’s either a return of a product unit back to you or a disposal of the merchandise by the Fulfilment Centre. >How long will it take to get the item(s) back? >Typically, return requests take 10 to 14 business days to pick, pack and dispatch.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - jakemoshenko 10y ago
    As of this time I can't actually find their listing on Amazon, but it's likely that they're "Ships from and sold by Amazon.com" as the traditional retailer, and not using FBA with their own webstore.
  - aruggirello 10y ago
    This applies to sellers, not suppliers (when a product "Ships from and sold by Amazon.com"). The Amazon supplier terms and conditions are atrocious, they squeeze you like a lemon.
- cwyers 10y ago
  But that would also be true if they were selling their speakers through Walmart, Best Buy, Sharper Image. This is a laundry list of complaints that boils down to "Amazon is a retailer." And who didn't know that? If you want to sell at retail you need inventory.
theossuary 10y ago
As a customer of Amazon I think Amazon should definitely be an appropriate distribution platform for anything. They have digital downloads, monthly subscripts, extremely large items; I don't think it's unreasonable to allow items with long fulfillment times (especially items handcrafted based on customer request). I've been very fed up with Amazon's selection, the number of scams and reduced quality on Amazon has seemed (at least anecdotally) to have skyrocketed. I think this article shows that Amazon's quality control issue is at least partially an issue with Amazon themselves, and not just the reseller market. Disallowing high quality products because they can't be made fast enough just smacks of poor planning on Amazon's part. I don't think anybody wants a market with a million crappy items, they want a market with as many quality items as possible, but no more.
- nameless912 10y ago
  > antidotally ... twitch It's "anecdotally*.
  - theossuary 10y ago
    Yup, I make that mistake all the time; thanks for catching it. I'll admit my previous post was a bit of a knee jerk, I've been trying to find an alternative to Amazon for a long time now, after being burned by scammers on their site. I agree with a lot of other points people have made (yes, the original post smacks of a marketing, yes Amazon as it stands isn't a good distribution channel for them). But I wish Amazon were a good distribution channel for them. I'd prefer one of these companies on Amazon over a dozen knock off brands.
- cracell 10y ago
  The scams and reduced quality are entirely Amazon's fault. They've done very little to cut down on them. But I don't think they have an appropriate system in place for any sort of custom device like this. Maybe they should but they don't today. The gist I got from this blog post wasn't that Amazon is unreasonable but that they expect their small business partners to match their own turn-arounds because that's part of their brand. I think that's entirely reasonable of Amazon since they do not currently have custom product support.
athenot 10y ago
> Amazon is not really an appropriate distribution platform for 6-week custom-made-to-order products. Maybe there's another well-known retail site that caters to that type of vendor but it certainly isn't Amazon (or Walmart). Perhaps Etsy would be a better platform for that product?
- RyanOD 10y ago
  Or Amazon Handmade? Does anyone know if Amazon treats Handmade sellers the same as standard Amazon sellers?
  - wand3r 10y ago
    I don't think they would trust Amazon again
  - narrowrail 10y ago
    You should check out this comment from elsewhere in this discussion by someone that seems to have done good original research: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14221869 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14221869
- detaro 10y ago
  Anecdotally, Etsy has issues with electronic items not being "hand-made" enough. (Some small music gear makers had problems with that)
bsimpson 10y ago
Etsy. The site you're thinking of is Etsy.
flubert 10y ago
>Amazon is not really an appropriate distribution platform for 6-week custom-made-to-order products. Maybe there's another well-known retail site that caters to that type of vendor but it certainly isn't Amazon (or Walmart). But there is Amazon Handmade (which is supposed to be the Amazon Etsy): https://services.amazon.com/handmade/handmade.html https://services.amazon.com/handmade/handmade.html ...and Amazon Custom: https://services.amazon.com/custom.html https://services.amazon.com/custom.html ..and Amazon Fine Art: https://www.amazon.com/b/?node=6685269011 https://www.amazon.com/b/?node=6685269011 ...so it looks like Amazon has their hands in other areas besides distribution of mass manufactured parts.
- jasode 10y ago
  >...so it looks like Amazon has their hands in other areas besides distribution of mass manufactured parts. For your 3 examples, I clicked on "Explore the store" and of the dozen or so random items I clicked on, it was 1 to 3 days delivery. I also found a wooden cutting board that you could personalize with a customer name (laser etching) and that was 3 to 6 business days. I didn't see any item that said 6 weeks for delivery like Etsy has. The Princeton Audio article didn't specify but I'm guessing[1] he's using one of these 2 Amazon partner programs: 1) https://vendorexpress.amazon.com https://vendorexpress.amazon.com 2) https://www.amazon.com/gp/launchpad https://www.amazon.com/gp/launchpad This gets you a special Amazon products page with the cachet of "Ships from and sold by Amazon.com" which is more valuable than "Fulfilled by Amazon." Those programs are not appropriate for 2 month lead times. [1] PA's dedicated Amazon product page which you can no longer reach from Amazon search but Google still had a link: https://www.amazon.com/Princeton-Audio-Site-Tonewood-Bluetooth/dp/B01J7XBE46/ https://www.amazon.com/Princeton-Audio-Site-Tonewood-Bluetoo...
  - CodeWriter23 10y ago
    Exactly. If they had chosen instead to use FBA, ALL of the frustrations Princeton documented would disappear. Of course they would be replaced with a different set of frustrations associated with FBA, but they would be able to set their own price, their own priorities, etc. I have a friend who works for a company that is a supplier for Amazon and Home Depot. He says they are both equally demanding and inflexible. I think that's just the game when being a supplier for big box inc. And obviously Princeton is not a big box product.
awqrre 10y ago
Amazon is also a lot like aliexpress... you can order some stuff from china that takes one month to get to you.
ziikutv 10y ago
I think what you said about keeping some popular, prebuilt configurations on Amazon makes perfect sense. I am not sure why they decided to entirely cut off Amazon. I have ordered products from Amazon that haven taken over a month to arrive. I am not sure why Amazon rush these folks. I think Amazon is fucking up here by trying to appear as a faster delivery solution over a quality of product solution. I think combining both, allowing for sale of pre-made, popular products, as well as allowing longer windows for custom built speakers is a solution that will work for both parties.

by jasode 10y ago

stcredzero 10y ago

Amazon is not really an appropriate distribution platform for 6-week custom-made-to-order products. Seems like there's a place for such a website. There are quite a number of things like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSR8wKQ-TEU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSR8wKQ-TEU Maybe there's another well-known retail site that caters to that type of vendor Massdrop? However, this requires a different set of adaptations from manufacturers that some might regard as "compromises."

ssambros 10y ago

> Maybe there's another well-known retail site that caters to that type of vendor but it certainly isn't Amazon (or Walmart). Massdrop is a possible alternative. They have a thriving audio enthusiast community and long fulfillment times for custom/semi-custom orders are not uncommon.

zelon88 10y ago

And the risk of keeping inventory value that you're never going to sell. Amazon takes their speakers, but will never send the unsold units back. Making expensive speakers according to MRP projections with no reliable demand is a time-bomb for a small company like this one. Especially if they're already unsatisfied with Amazon's performance, why would they risk thousands of dollars worth of product for no reason? It doesn't seem like they're trying to scale-up to be Bose. They seem to just want to hang out, make money, and make diesel speakers.

Dayshine 10y ago
https://services.amazon.co.uk/services/fulfilment-by-amazon/winning-with-fba/faq.html https://services.amazon.co.uk/services/fulfilment-by-amazon/... >Requesting a Removal Order (Return or Disposal) of Product Units >What is a removal order? >It’s either a return of a product unit back to you or a disposal of the merchandise by the Fulfilment Centre. >How long will it take to get the item(s) back? >Typically, return requests take 10 to 14 business days to pick, pack and dispatch.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- jakemoshenko 10y ago
  As of this time I can't actually find their listing on Amazon, but it's likely that they're "Ships from and sold by Amazon.com" as the traditional retailer, and not using FBA with their own webstore.
- aruggirello 10y ago
  This applies to sellers, not suppliers (when a product "Ships from and sold by Amazon.com"). The Amazon supplier terms and conditions are atrocious, they squeeze you like a lemon.
cwyers 10y ago
But that would also be true if they were selling their speakers through Walmart, Best Buy, Sharper Image. This is a laundry list of complaints that boils down to "Amazon is a retailer." And who didn't know that? If you want to sell at retail you need inventory.

theossuary 10y ago

As a customer of Amazon I think Amazon should definitely be an appropriate distribution platform for anything. They have digital downloads, monthly subscripts, extremely large items; I don't think it's unreasonable to allow items with long fulfillment times (especially items handcrafted based on customer request). I've been very fed up with Amazon's selection, the number of scams and reduced quality on Amazon has seemed (at least anecdotally) to have skyrocketed. I think this article shows that Amazon's quality control issue is at least partially an issue with Amazon themselves, and not just the reseller market. Disallowing high quality products because they can't be made fast enough just smacks of poor planning on Amazon's part. I don't think anybody wants a market with a million crappy items, they want a market with as many quality items as possible, but no more.

nameless912 10y ago
> antidotally ... twitch It's "anecdotally*.
- theossuary 10y ago
  Yup, I make that mistake all the time; thanks for catching it. I'll admit my previous post was a bit of a knee jerk, I've been trying to find an alternative to Amazon for a long time now, after being burned by scammers on their site. I agree with a lot of other points people have made (yes, the original post smacks of a marketing, yes Amazon as it stands isn't a good distribution channel for them). But I wish Amazon were a good distribution channel for them. I'd prefer one of these companies on Amazon over a dozen knock off brands.
cracell 10y ago
The scams and reduced quality are entirely Amazon's fault. They've done very little to cut down on them. But I don't think they have an appropriate system in place for any sort of custom device like this. Maybe they should but they don't today. The gist I got from this blog post wasn't that Amazon is unreasonable but that they expect their small business partners to match their own turn-arounds because that's part of their brand. I think that's entirely reasonable of Amazon since they do not currently have custom product support.

athenot 10y ago

RyanOD 10y ago
Or Amazon Handmade? Does anyone know if Amazon treats Handmade sellers the same as standard Amazon sellers?
- wand3r 10y ago
  I don't think they would trust Amazon again
- narrowrail 10y ago
  You should check out this comment from elsewhere in this discussion by someone that seems to have done good original research: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14221869 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14221869
detaro 10y ago
Anecdotally, Etsy has issues with electronic items not being "hand-made" enough. (Some small music gear makers had problems with that)

bsimpson 10y ago

Etsy. The site you're thinking of is Etsy.

flubert 10y ago

>Amazon is not really an appropriate distribution platform for 6-week custom-made-to-order products. Maybe there's another well-known retail site that caters to that type of vendor but it certainly isn't Amazon (or Walmart). But there is Amazon Handmade (which is supposed to be the Amazon Etsy): https://services.amazon.com/handmade/handmade.html https://services.amazon.com/handmade/handmade.html ...and Amazon Custom: https://services.amazon.com/custom.html https://services.amazon.com/custom.html ..and Amazon Fine Art: https://www.amazon.com/b/?node=6685269011 https://www.amazon.com/b/?node=6685269011 ...so it looks like Amazon has their hands in other areas besides distribution of mass manufactured parts.

jasode 10y ago
>...so it looks like Amazon has their hands in other areas besides distribution of mass manufactured parts. For your 3 examples, I clicked on "Explore the store" and of the dozen or so random items I clicked on, it was 1 to 3 days delivery. I also found a wooden cutting board that you could personalize with a customer name (laser etching) and that was 3 to 6 business days. I didn't see any item that said 6 weeks for delivery like Etsy has. The Princeton Audio article didn't specify but I'm guessing[1] he's using one of these 2 Amazon partner programs: 1) https://vendorexpress.amazon.com https://vendorexpress.amazon.com 2) https://www.amazon.com/gp/launchpad https://www.amazon.com/gp/launchpad This gets you a special Amazon products page with the cachet of "Ships from and sold by Amazon.com" which is more valuable than "Fulfilled by Amazon." Those programs are not appropriate for 2 month lead times. [1] PA's dedicated Amazon product page which you can no longer reach from Amazon search but Google still had a link: https://www.amazon.com/Princeton-Audio-Site-Tonewood-Bluetooth/dp/B01J7XBE46/ https://www.amazon.com/Princeton-Audio-Site-Tonewood-Bluetoo...
- CodeWriter23 10y ago
  Exactly. If they had chosen instead to use FBA, ALL of the frustrations Princeton documented would disappear. Of course they would be replaced with a different set of frustrations associated with FBA, but they would be able to set their own price, their own priorities, etc. I have a friend who works for a company that is a supplier for Amazon and Home Depot. He says they are both equally demanding and inflexible. I think that's just the game when being a supplier for big box inc. And obviously Princeton is not a big box product.

awqrre 10y ago

Amazon is also a lot like aliexpress... you can order some stuff from china that takes one month to get to you.

ziikutv 10y ago

I think what you said about keeping some popular, prebuilt configurations on Amazon makes perfect sense. I am not sure why they decided to entirely cut off Amazon. I have ordered products from Amazon that haven taken over a month to arrive. I am not sure why Amazon rush these folks. I think Amazon is fucking up here by trying to appear as a faster delivery solution over a quality of product solution. I think combining both, allowing for sale of pre-made, popular products, as well as allowing longer windows for custom built speakers is a solution that will work for both parties.