5 ms·

Is it sexist if it's reflective of reality? Men commit more aggressive crimes than women by far.

by artursapek 10y ago

shouldbworking 10y ago
Shhhhhh! Theres no room for reality in here, were pretending that gender is a made up sociological concept
- ue_ 10y ago
  To my knowledge, gender is thought of as a complex of at least two aspects: those differences between what is thought of as masculine and feminine, and the roles assigned to genders. In these cases, gender pertains to the ideas of gender identity and further gender expression. In other cases, gender is also thought of as including or being inextricably related to biological sex. Gender isn't "made up" in the same way that words aren't "made up"; it is an aspect of society, but unlike words, gender is with some relation to observable physical biological expression, usually termed as 'sex'. But the concept of gender as I have seen it used is certainly depending on society, rather than physical sex. Variations within sex (such as intersex) is another question and is unrelated to gender, as far as I know.
  - tomp 10y ago
    The problem with "gender" as a concept is that they hijacked existing words ("man" and "woman") that were previously used for "sex". This can be clearly seen by trying to define these words without reference to sex - you can't except by defining them recursively ("men are people who identify as men"), in which case, I think a better choice would be to invent new words for this new concept.
    - ue_ 10y ago
      Sex is to male and female as gender is to masculine and feminine.
- LunaSea 10y ago
  We're waiting for your constructive rebuttal instead of snide remarks.
  - shouldbworking 10y ago
    There's biologically driven behavioral differences between male and female due to genetics. These differences are on a spectrum that varies between individuals but they are clearly visible in aggregate. A lot of recent political rhetoric bulldozes over the obvious differences between male and female to the detriment of our species. For example, the push to have the same physical standards for male and female in the army and elsewhere will inevitably drive the standards down. Males are mentally and physically tougher by design. And before anyone calls me sexist, they also die younger. Everything is a trade-off. I believe that denying these differences is sexist, as it results in laws that affect males and females unequally. Should sentences for violent crimes be shorter for men because higher testosterone levels make them more biologically prone to violence? This is dangerous political territory bordering on eugenics but an interesting question nonetheless.
zebrafish 10y ago
It's probably still sexist. I think you would probably agree that literature spoke the same way about black people a couple hundred years ago. Cultures can be sexist or racist even if everyone subscribes to the same discriminatory standards. However, I think the interesting point is that this is the culmination of 100,000 plot descriptions. At that point, it's not a reflection of bias in an author, it's a culturally accepted position on the roles of genders. (whether right or wrong) ...or I guess it could be a bunch of biased wikipedia editors :D
- tomp 10y ago
  If you took 100,000 historical books describing the periods of US slavery, you'd have a strong correlation between "black" and "slave", but concluding that the books are therefore racist would be extremely illogical.
  - dahart 10y ago
    You have a valid point of logic. The only problem is that in reality, many many of those books actually were racist. Slavery and racism were in fact culturally acceptable in the United States for a period of time, it is not at all a stretch to hypothesize that the writing of the time reflected that fact. One might even argue that to assume otherwise would be extremely illogical.
    - Bartweiss 10y ago
      Ok, but the conflation is still wrong. A tract by John Brown about the evils of slavery would conflate the two without racism, while a racist screed by a Southern manner owner might use "servitude" or some other euphemism. The question isn't whether racism was common (yes, obviously) it's whether a specific language correlation reflects a racist author or work about a racist society. More broadly, this is a case of "right for the wrong reason". Many books mentioning slavery will be racist because many books of all sorts were racist, but we're asking whether this is informative or just a base rate fallacy.
      - 10y ago
viraptor 10y ago
An interesting question is: does it just reflect reality, or does it shape reality? There are cultures with different ideas about genders - ideas taught to people. So a random book, movie, story, etc you discover in modern west has a higher chance of describing a man murdering a resisting woman. If you see that trope repeated enough times - are you affected in any way? Is there a statistically relevant impact on society as a whole? I'd say that if there is, then yes, content which keeps the idea alive is sexist to an extent. (Unless you're writing non-fiction) And the existence of the adtech, and ideas like brand awareness, and catchy jingles, and recent fake news is a decent example that society is relatively easy to influence just by constant repeating and enforcing of information.
- ebfd 10y ago
  In what culture are women depicted as more likely to commit sexual crimes against men than vice-versa?
Torwald 10y ago
Let's say your second hypothesis is true. What would that mean? That men commit more aggressive crimes or that the users of the language perceive it that way? Also, what would then be seen as a crime or as violence? The point I am trying to make is that there is probably a cultural factor in this as well. (How the culture perceives things to be.)
appetizer 10y ago
But there is plenty of evidence to suggest that isn't an absolute. Men's efficacy at aggression is greater, when it happens, and that is what gets reported. I would say most of the research in this area is in abusive relationships. Where only heterosexual abuse from man to woman is noticed and acted on, which greatly distorts reality and cultural expectations. Many men are physically abused by women, and this is underreported. Gay and lesbian relationships also produce a power dynamic, which has also gone underreported, as they were already either marginalized, or collectively too busy trying to make all LGBT relationships seem completely benign so that their neighbors wouldn't marginalize them. Do I have enough quantitative evidence to disprove your "by far" statement? No, but thats not the point. There is something about HUMANS that we should enlighten ourselves about.
- tomp 10y ago
  Yes, and women commit the majority of infanticides. Still, doesn't change the fact that most violent agressors (and victims of violent crime) are men.
  - appetizer 10y ago
    again, down to the reporting. will a human being pumped with testosterone and upper body strength be violent? a human being with a Y chromosome? thats currently what culture suspects given the reported information available in crime statistics. I'm telling you that such reductionism isn't an absolute, as there is enough evidence from marginalized people and power dynamics to warrant altering the cultural assumptions. The culture alone (and the stories written in these cultures) is what perpetuates a lack of further insight into this.

Is it sexist if it's reflective of reality? Men commit more aggressive crimes than women by far.

shouldbworking 10y ago

Shhhhhh! Theres no room for reality in here, were pretending that gender is a made up sociological concept

ue_ 10y ago
To my knowledge, gender is thought of as a complex of at least two aspects: those differences between what is thought of as masculine and feminine, and the roles assigned to genders. In these cases, gender pertains to the ideas of gender identity and further gender expression. In other cases, gender is also thought of as including or being inextricably related to biological sex. Gender isn't "made up" in the same way that words aren't "made up"; it is an aspect of society, but unlike words, gender is with some relation to observable physical biological expression, usually termed as 'sex'. But the concept of gender as I have seen it used is certainly depending on society, rather than physical sex. Variations within sex (such as intersex) is another question and is unrelated to gender, as far as I know.
- tomp 10y ago
  The problem with "gender" as a concept is that they hijacked existing words ("man" and "woman") that were previously used for "sex". This can be clearly seen by trying to define these words without reference to sex - you can't except by defining them recursively ("men are people who identify as men"), in which case, I think a better choice would be to invent new words for this new concept.
  - ue_ 10y ago
    Sex is to male and female as gender is to masculine and feminine.
LunaSea 10y ago
We're waiting for your constructive rebuttal instead of snide remarks.
- shouldbworking 10y ago
  There's biologically driven behavioral differences between male and female due to genetics. These differences are on a spectrum that varies between individuals but they are clearly visible in aggregate. A lot of recent political rhetoric bulldozes over the obvious differences between male and female to the detriment of our species. For example, the push to have the same physical standards for male and female in the army and elsewhere will inevitably drive the standards down. Males are mentally and physically tougher by design. And before anyone calls me sexist, they also die younger. Everything is a trade-off. I believe that denying these differences is sexist, as it results in laws that affect males and females unequally. Should sentences for violent crimes be shorter for men because higher testosterone levels make them more biologically prone to violence? This is dangerous political territory bordering on eugenics but an interesting question nonetheless.

zebrafish 10y ago

It's probably still sexist. I think you would probably agree that literature spoke the same way about black people a couple hundred years ago. Cultures can be sexist or racist even if everyone subscribes to the same discriminatory standards. However, I think the interesting point is that this is the culmination of 100,000 plot descriptions. At that point, it's not a reflection of bias in an author, it's a culturally accepted position on the roles of genders. (whether right or wrong) ...or I guess it could be a bunch of biased wikipedia editors :D

tomp 10y ago
If you took 100,000 historical books describing the periods of US slavery, you'd have a strong correlation between "black" and "slave", but concluding that the books are therefore racist would be extremely illogical.
- dahart 10y ago
  You have a valid point of logic. The only problem is that in reality, many many of those books actually were racist. Slavery and racism were in fact culturally acceptable in the United States for a period of time, it is not at all a stretch to hypothesize that the writing of the time reflected that fact. One might even argue that to assume otherwise would be extremely illogical.
  - Bartweiss 10y ago
    Ok, but the conflation is still wrong. A tract by John Brown about the evils of slavery would conflate the two without racism, while a racist screed by a Southern manner owner might use "servitude" or some other euphemism. The question isn't whether racism was common (yes, obviously) it's whether a specific language correlation reflects a racist author or work about a racist society. More broadly, this is a case of "right for the wrong reason". Many books mentioning slavery will be racist because many books of all sorts were racist, but we're asking whether this is informative or just a base rate fallacy.
    - 10y ago

viraptor 10y ago

An interesting question is: does it just reflect reality, or does it shape reality? There are cultures with different ideas about genders - ideas taught to people. So a random book, movie, story, etc you discover in modern west has a higher chance of describing a man murdering a resisting woman. If you see that trope repeated enough times - are you affected in any way? Is there a statistically relevant impact on society as a whole? I'd say that if there is, then yes, content which keeps the idea alive is sexist to an extent. (Unless you're writing non-fiction) And the existence of the adtech, and ideas like brand awareness, and catchy jingles, and recent fake news is a decent example that society is relatively easy to influence just by constant repeating and enforcing of information.

ebfd 10y ago
In what culture are women depicted as more likely to commit sexual crimes against men than vice-versa?

Torwald 10y ago

Let's say your second hypothesis is true. What would that mean? That men commit more aggressive crimes or that the users of the language perceive it that way? Also, what would then be seen as a crime or as violence? The point I am trying to make is that there is probably a cultural factor in this as well. (How the culture perceives things to be.)

appetizer 10y ago

But there is plenty of evidence to suggest that isn't an absolute. Men's efficacy at aggression is greater, when it happens, and that is what gets reported. I would say most of the research in this area is in abusive relationships. Where only heterosexual abuse from man to woman is noticed and acted on, which greatly distorts reality and cultural expectations. Many men are physically abused by women, and this is underreported. Gay and lesbian relationships also produce a power dynamic, which has also gone underreported, as they were already either marginalized, or collectively too busy trying to make all LGBT relationships seem completely benign so that their neighbors wouldn't marginalize them. Do I have enough quantitative evidence to disprove your "by far" statement? No, but thats not the point. There is something about HUMANS that we should enlighten ourselves about.

tomp 10y ago
Yes, and women commit the majority of infanticides. Still, doesn't change the fact that most violent agressors (and victims of violent crime) are men.
- appetizer 10y ago
  again, down to the reporting. will a human being pumped with testosterone and upper body strength be violent? a human being with a Y chromosome? thats currently what culture suspects given the reported information available in crime statistics. I'm telling you that such reductionism isn't an absolute, as there is enough evidence from marginalized people and power dynamics to warrant altering the cultural assumptions. The culture alone (and the stories written in these cultures) is what perpetuates a lack of further insight into this.