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"some" developers? I'd guess that's in fact "most". In my experience the only people who like open office are those whose job is to talk all day long. Sales gu

"some" developers? I'd guess that's in fact "most". In my experience the only people who like open office are those whose job is to talk all day long. Sales guys, visionaires, busy bodies etc. Everyone else just suffers.

mgkimsal 10y ago
This evergreen topic comes up enough that there will always be multiple sides to this topic. I've gone so far in past threads to imply that other devs were "wrong" about being more productive in open office plans, and got bashed for that. "Don't tell me how I'm more productive", etc. There may never actually be hard data on this, because it's, at core, likely very hard to measure, but I'd love to read some research/findings on this issue more. I'm in a coworking situation now, with a private space, and I'm always more productive in the private space. But I do relieve some stress and get energized by interacting with others in the common area. And in previous jobs, there's of course always times when you need to talk to colleagues about project issues, and that's a requirement. To the folks (devs) who insist that they are "more productive" in open plan offices, I wonder if the rest of the folks in the room with you are equally as productive, or if the productivity is just being shifted from some people in the room to others.
- mseebach 10y ago
  I think there are at least two different kinds of productivity. One is the kind where you need to progress through a non-trivial body of work with a well-understood end-state. Your primary, if not sole, output is code. This is probably well suited for private offices and remote teams. The other is where you're solving a problem that isn't in the first order a code problem. There are typically humans involved in these kinds of problems. Most instances where the problem is defined as "building the right thing for the customer" where part of the problem is coming up with "the right thing". This works well in open plan offices where multiple people can quickly give input/get feedback. Remote working is probably not a great idea. Most work in early startups is probably in this category, and that also offers a model to explain why open plan offices are so common in not-startups-anymore: these companies are very eager to retain the energy of their early days, and a lot of that energy is tied to the collaboration of the open plan office, even if not necessarily suited to the workloads of the more mature company. Tl;dr: when people speak of being more or less productive under certain conditions, a lot probably hinges on what kind of work they are doing.
  - dhimes 10y ago
    There are also people other than coders in tech companies. I'm next door to a sales group for a tech company. They do a lot of yelling.
    - mseebach 10y ago
      Yes, I agree that co-locating teams that aren't directly collaborating can be counterproductive. Loud sales teams, obviously, yes, but quieter teams will also have different patterns of buzz that will be disturbing to unrelated teams near them.
      - dhimes 10y ago
        It's interesting. They get REALLY PISSED at the developers about stuff.
        noir_lord 10y ago
        When I've worked in none-developer companies I've always found the office staff are fine as long as you don't rub it in their faces that you earn more and have more freedom. Well except one place where the people in the office where just horrible (really toxic culture largly down to the 'office manager' been about one step short of invading Poland) so I just did as I pleased (wandering in at 10am wearing flip flops and combat shorts), I was pulling 60hr weeks so the boss didn't care and she hated me anyway because she had to do payroll and knew what I was earning, I was knackered from day one on that job.
        dhimes 10y ago
        What's interesting here is the sales group is from a different company. Their devs are at a different office. So I hear the stuff like a fly on the wall. What I don't hear is the root cause of the angst. Is the sales team overpromising? I don't know. But when something's not ready for their demo it gets quite loud.
  - 10y ago
- cmahler7 10y ago
  there is data on the subject and it is simply not possible to be more productive in an open office with distractions. It's impossible with the way our brains work
noir_lord 10y ago
I said some because if I had said all or implied all I'd have gotten lots of "but I love open offices" responses and they do exist.
- zhte415 10y ago
  Indeed they do, I'm one of them. But with a huge caveat: I can largely turn off other sensory input. Some is nice: a breeze through the window, a buzz of others around, nice light and open plan but not vast open plan; no one is no more than 4 desks away from a window (a proper window that can be opened and that has some kind of view). And cubicles shouldn't have huge walls; can see the face or top of the head of the person next to you. Also: Lots of small meeting rooms dotted around with almost assured availability of one at little notice. It could be for a sensitive call, impromptu conversation, or just to sit in the dark working something out. I couldn't survive normally in one, nor in the other. However I default at open plan. If others want to default the other way, that's good too. There should be options.
5ourpu55 10y ago
I feel that many people miss one of the big advantages to open offices is that they are CHEAP! "Open office" is double speak for "cheap, stadium seating style office." The goal is not to have an optimal workspace. It's to cram as many workers into your as possible.

mgkimsal 10y ago

This evergreen topic comes up enough that there will always be multiple sides to this topic. I've gone so far in past threads to imply that other devs were "wrong" about being more productive in open office plans, and got bashed for that. "Don't tell me how I'm more productive", etc. There may never actually be hard data on this, because it's, at core, likely very hard to measure, but I'd love to read some research/findings on this issue more. I'm in a coworking situation now, with a private space, and I'm always more productive in the private space. But I do relieve some stress and get energized by interacting with others in the common area. And in previous jobs, there's of course always times when you need to talk to colleagues about project issues, and that's a requirement. To the folks (devs) who insist that they are "more productive" in open plan offices, I wonder if the rest of the folks in the room with you are equally as productive, or if the productivity is just being shifted from some people in the room to others.

mseebach 10y ago
I think there are at least two different kinds of productivity. One is the kind where you need to progress through a non-trivial body of work with a well-understood end-state. Your primary, if not sole, output is code. This is probably well suited for private offices and remote teams. The other is where you're solving a problem that isn't in the first order a code problem. There are typically humans involved in these kinds of problems. Most instances where the problem is defined as "building the right thing for the customer" where part of the problem is coming up with "the right thing". This works well in open plan offices where multiple people can quickly give input/get feedback. Remote working is probably not a great idea. Most work in early startups is probably in this category, and that also offers a model to explain why open plan offices are so common in not-startups-anymore: these companies are very eager to retain the energy of their early days, and a lot of that energy is tied to the collaboration of the open plan office, even if not necessarily suited to the workloads of the more mature company. Tl;dr: when people speak of being more or less productive under certain conditions, a lot probably hinges on what kind of work they are doing.
- dhimes 10y ago
  There are also people other than coders in tech companies. I'm next door to a sales group for a tech company. They do a lot of yelling.
  - mseebach 10y ago
    Yes, I agree that co-locating teams that aren't directly collaborating can be counterproductive. Loud sales teams, obviously, yes, but quieter teams will also have different patterns of buzz that will be disturbing to unrelated teams near them.
    - dhimes 10y ago
      It's interesting. They get REALLY PISSED at the developers about stuff.
      - noir_lord 10y ago
        When I've worked in none-developer companies I've always found the office staff are fine as long as you don't rub it in their faces that you earn more and have more freedom. Well except one place where the people in the office where just horrible (really toxic culture largly down to the 'office manager' been about one step short of invading Poland) so I just did as I pleased (wandering in at 10am wearing flip flops and combat shorts), I was pulling 60hr weeks so the boss didn't care and she hated me anyway because she had to do payroll and knew what I was earning, I was knackered from day one on that job.
        dhimes 10y ago
        What's interesting here is the sales group is from a different company. Their devs are at a different office. So I hear the stuff like a fly on the wall. What I don't hear is the root cause of the angst. Is the sales team overpromising? I don't know. But when something's not ready for their demo it gets quite loud.
- 10y ago
cmahler7 10y ago
there is data on the subject and it is simply not possible to be more productive in an open office with distractions. It's impossible with the way our brains work

noir_lord 10y ago

I said some because if I had said all or implied all I'd have gotten lots of "but I love open offices" responses and they do exist.

zhte415 10y ago
Indeed they do, I'm one of them. But with a huge caveat: I can largely turn off other sensory input. Some is nice: a breeze through the window, a buzz of others around, nice light and open plan but not vast open plan; no one is no more than 4 desks away from a window (a proper window that can be opened and that has some kind of view). And cubicles shouldn't have huge walls; can see the face or top of the head of the person next to you. Also: Lots of small meeting rooms dotted around with almost assured availability of one at little notice. It could be for a sensitive call, impromptu conversation, or just to sit in the dark working something out. I couldn't survive normally in one, nor in the other. However I default at open plan. If others want to default the other way, that's good too. There should be options.

5ourpu55 10y ago

I feel that many people miss one of the big advantages to open offices is that they are CHEAP! "Open office" is double speak for "cheap, stadium seating style office." The goal is not to have an optimal workspace. It's to cram as many workers into your as possible.