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On the Road with Aristotle: Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance (1974)

105 points by samclemens 10y ago

aaron-lebo 10y ago
It should be cautioned that this book gets killed by a lot of people who have done philosophy for various reasons. But Phil Jackson is apparently a fan, and anyone who wins 10 NBA championships and got the best out of MJ, Kobe, Shaq, and the Worm, and is a "Zen Christian" must know something interesting. And yeah, it's a book worth reading through, if grueling at times. I can't find the quote, but one of his points is that quality things have quality because their creators deeply cared about them and put that care into the product. It seemed very Jobsian (maybe not surprising given his own interests).
- igk 10y ago
  Interesting, do you have any links to stimulating critiques at hand?
  - aaron-lebo 10y ago
    They may not be stimulating and Reddit search is not working at the moment, but if you'll search there, there's a lot of commentary at different times and across various subreddits on the book.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- revscat 10y ago
  I have run into that before, as well, but I do not recall where. Philosophers of seem to hate this book for reasons that I'm not sure about. I thought it was an excellent read, and something I have kept a part of throughout my life after first reading it sometime in the mid 80s.
- dugditches 10y ago
  I try not to read to deeply into it as a 'Philosophical' text. And more on the concepts of 'Quality' and the thought process of an analytical person. The book starts with fairly simple real world examples I'm sure most people could agree or relate with(the author/character was an editor of 'Digital Computer Manuals') .
- 0x445442 10y ago
  The book's investigation of quality and how quality relates to a meaningful life has occupied my mind off and on for decades now. But much more so the past few years. I remember going to Duke Chapel a number of years ago and looking at the stone work there and wondering if there was even enough masons of that caliber to build something like that today. Then I thought what it must be like, being able to bring your children and grand children there and say, "Pappy helped build this place with his hands". Perhaps it's a case of greener pastures but it sure seems having the ability to draw on those types of experiences would act as a warm blanket when the more cynical me started to develop a cold perspective.
sharkweek 10y ago
People complain about this book a lot but I enjoyed it for the most part. Having no philosophy background, I generally struggled through some of his more academic points though. But I generally enjoy books that have "quotable wisdom" in the narrative. One of the quotes that has stuck with me the longest is from this book: "The place to improve the world is first in one's own heart and head and hands, and then work outward from there."
- digi_owl 10y ago
  "Be the change you desire"?
voidhorse 10y ago
To interpret Plato as a practitioner of Zen...the other Buddhist sects must be far different from Mahayana Buddhism--anyone who is familiar with Mahayana, especially the line stemming from Bodhidharma, and Plato's thought will know that to compare Plato's philosophy with Zen is patently ridiculous--the one rejects the existence of objects, the other wants there to be a whole heaven of conceptual objects--to think there is any similarity in the 'one' of zen and the 'one' of Plato, or the Neo-platonists for that matter, just shows to me that you've engaged in very shallow reading. Still perhaps there's something in it, based on how absurdly incorrect it seems--plus I only know a bit about Mahayana--no other Zen traditions, so perhaps there are some that are more akin. In general I am suspicious of all books and articles that insist on modelling their titles off of buzzy cliche's: "Zen and the art of XYZ" "How I Learned to Stop Worrying and XYZ" etc. It just does not leave a tantalizing impression and stinks of shallow laziness to me. I suppose this isn't totally fair to this book, considering it came out in 1974--but still! That's a shame because skimming through this article, this books sounds as though it may prove to be somewhat interesting. Please, you've worked so hard on your book--for the love of god, bless it with the title it deserves! I think this is some practical advice for writer's: consider the glittering titles of Nietzsche's works before you settle on a name for your book--is that really what you want to call it?--is that really its name? Sheesh, I may have to read this just because of how vehemently I disagree with that Plato/Zen analogy--I need to see where the hell this guy could possibly be coming from other than bad, clumsy reading, and poor conceptual housekeeping--if not from here he's picked up on a grand connection I've missed, and has thus created something worthwhile. (If only the name designated so!)
- scrumper 10y ago
  The book is a monument of literature. Its title is the genesis of your buzzy cliché, not a lazy user of it. It deserves none of that opprobrium from someone who hasn't read it.
  - bnjms 10y ago
    Always a bit disappointed to see my message shared more effectively in fewer words.
randcraw 10y ago
That's a brilliant review, capturing the major threads of the story like no other I've seen. But it also seems best suited to those who've already read the book (and can appreciate the relevance of the reviewer's philosophical argot), and perhaps not as suited to those who are deciding if this story would be worth their time. OTOH, maybe anyone not put off by the reviewer's language and willing to read his entire review will see that s/he indeed does have The Right Stuff to plumb the rich depths of ZatAoMM. God speed, Mr Pirsig. Your book meant worlds to me.
- Fezzik 10y ago
  Slight tangent: I have seen a lot of mention of Zen, but not many people bring up the follow-up book, Lila. I found the second to be a more accessible and applicable-to-every-day-life sort of book, and more maturely written. I enjoyed Zen more when I was younger and Lila more as an adult; I have read both at least 4 or 5 times apiece. Both are brilliant though. And the linked review is fantastic.
  - skilesare 10y ago
    Yes, Lila is great. I think there is a lot there if you are looking to make some meaning out of a seemingly random world.
dnquark 10y ago
Is there a resource in the vein of the linked review, but that explains the book (and its philosophical content) on a more basic level, for someone with no background in the subject? I was hoping that Pirsig would help me understand philosophy by placing it in a familiar and tangible setting -- that's what the title suggests. I was very disappointed. Take the idea of Quality, for example. Pirsig talks about it for half the book; this is a concept that drives him insane and is central to his life and to the narrative. I still haven't the foggiest idea of what he is talking about, pages of strange analogies notwithstanding. To me, this was a book about a troubled intellectual and his grappling with mental illness. About somebody that drives himself insane by obsessing over abstruse concepts arising from human experience. And it's a well-told story that made me think, but also made it very hard to relate to the protagonist simply because I do. not. understand. his intellectual struggle.
- shorttime 10y ago
  But you do! You are saying and itterating exactly how he feels when it comes to quality. You can't define what he's talking about in his book. He can't define quality. They're very similar concepts, not exact, but they provide the same feeling. How would you define quality?
  - cm2012 10y ago
    How well something achieves all of its intended functions (including longevity, etc.)
  - dnquark 10y ago
    I would say that quality is an abstract value judgement that requires context to be meaningful. That's why it escapes precise definition. Whenever Pirsig talks about quality, it seems that he is heavily overloading the term. What he is really trying to do is develop a set of guiding principles that makes him feel like he understands the world and his role in it. Most people use religion or science for this, but Pirsig explicitly rejects science as a way of discovering the truth (for his definition of truth), and I think he implicitly rejects religion as well. I ended up reading "Quality" as just a label that he attaches to the personal philosophy he develops instead.
tsomctl 10y ago
There's a number of times when I've finished reading a book, reading an article, listening to an album, or watching a movie, I'm left thinking "What the fuck was that?" It didn't necessarily bring joy, but it made me think, and much later I realize how good it was. Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance is the best example of this.
c141charlie 10y ago
There's a section in this book that discusses the inability of a narcissist to fix a motorcycle. As a software engineer with narcissistic tendencies, that section really struck a nerve, and inspired me to dive way deeper into our systems and try to understand "what where they thinking" when working in a legacy code base someone else designed. This curiosity has led to several aha moments that I would have prematurely dismissed as an idiotic code base designed by idiots had I not spent the time to try and understand it.
IgorPartola 10y ago
I don't know what you all are talking about. Clearly this is a great piece on how to fix motorcycles! :) I enjoyed it. The part where he talks about how a stripped screw is suddenly the most important screw in the world and you should treat it as such really stuck with me. I have used that attitude many times to get out of jam. Also, I really enjoyed his description of how he approached fixing his bike vs his friend's BMW. And also the little talk he gave in putting together the grill and the instructions manual.
manten75 10y ago
One of my favorite books about philosophy. And funny enough, a good book about motivation.
smcl 10y ago
The podcast "I don't even own a television" did an episode about the book - http://www.idontevenownatelevision.com/2015/05/22/zen-and-the-art-of-motorcycle-maintenance http://www.idontevenownatelevision.com/2015/05/22/zen-and-th... The podcast is about "bad books" so that's the angle they approach it from, but the guys are funny, very nice and aren't super cruel or anything.

105 points by samclemens 10y ago

It should be cautioned that this book gets killed by a lot of people who have done philosophy for various reasons. But Phil Jackson is apparently a fan, and anyone who wins 10 NBA championships and got the best out of MJ, Kobe, Shaq, and the Worm, and is a "Zen Christian" must know something interesting. And yeah, it's a book worth reading through, if grueling at times. I can't find the quote, but one of his points is that quality things have quality because their creators deeply cared about them and put that care into the product. It seemed very Jobsian (maybe not surprising given his own interests).

igk 10y ago
Interesting, do you have any links to stimulating critiques at hand?
- aaron-lebo 10y ago
  They may not be stimulating and Reddit search is not working at the moment, but if you'll search there, there's a lot of commentary at different times and across various subreddits on the book.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
revscat 10y ago
I have run into that before, as well, but I do not recall where. Philosophers of seem to hate this book for reasons that I'm not sure about. I thought it was an excellent read, and something I have kept a part of throughout my life after first reading it sometime in the mid 80s.
dugditches 10y ago
I try not to read to deeply into it as a 'Philosophical' text. And more on the concepts of 'Quality' and the thought process of an analytical person. The book starts with fairly simple real world examples I'm sure most people could agree or relate with(the author/character was an editor of 'Digital Computer Manuals') .
0x445442 10y ago
The book's investigation of quality and how quality relates to a meaningful life has occupied my mind off and on for decades now. But much more so the past few years. I remember going to Duke Chapel a number of years ago and looking at the stone work there and wondering if there was even enough masons of that caliber to build something like that today. Then I thought what it must be like, being able to bring your children and grand children there and say, "Pappy helped build this place with his hands". Perhaps it's a case of greener pastures but it sure seems having the ability to draw on those types of experiences would act as a warm blanket when the more cynical me started to develop a cold perspective.

sharkweek 10y ago

People complain about this book a lot but I enjoyed it for the most part. Having no philosophy background, I generally struggled through some of his more academic points though. But I generally enjoy books that have "quotable wisdom" in the narrative. One of the quotes that has stuck with me the longest is from this book: "The place to improve the world is first in one's own heart and head and hands, and then work outward from there."

digi_owl 10y ago
"Be the change you desire"?

voidhorse 10y ago

To interpret Plato as a practitioner of Zen...the other Buddhist sects must be far different from Mahayana Buddhism--anyone who is familiar with Mahayana, especially the line stemming from Bodhidharma, and Plato's thought will know that to compare Plato's philosophy with Zen is patently ridiculous--the one rejects the existence of objects, the other wants there to be a whole heaven of conceptual objects--to think there is any similarity in the 'one' of zen and the 'one' of Plato, or the Neo-platonists for that matter, just shows to me that you've engaged in very shallow reading. Still perhaps there's something in it, based on how absurdly incorrect it seems--plus I only know a bit about Mahayana--no other Zen traditions, so perhaps there are some that are more akin. In general I am suspicious of all books and articles that insist on modelling their titles off of buzzy cliche's: "Zen and the art of XYZ" "How I Learned to Stop Worrying and XYZ" etc. It just does not leave a tantalizing impression and stinks of shallow laziness to me. I suppose this isn't totally fair to this book, considering it came out in 1974--but still! That's a shame because skimming through this article, this books sounds as though it may prove to be somewhat interesting. Please, you've worked so hard on your book--for the love of god, bless it with the title it deserves! I think this is some practical advice for writer's: consider the glittering titles of Nietzsche's works before you settle on a name for your book--is that really what you want to call it?--is that really its name? Sheesh, I may have to read this just because of how vehemently I disagree with that Plato/Zen analogy--I need to see where the hell this guy could possibly be coming from other than bad, clumsy reading, and poor conceptual housekeeping--if not from here he's picked up on a grand connection I've missed, and has thus created something worthwhile. (If only the name designated so!)

scrumper 10y ago
The book is a monument of literature. Its title is the genesis of your buzzy cliché, not a lazy user of it. It deserves none of that opprobrium from someone who hasn't read it.
- bnjms 10y ago
  Always a bit disappointed to see my message shared more effectively in fewer words.

randcraw 10y ago

That's a brilliant review, capturing the major threads of the story like no other I've seen. But it also seems best suited to those who've already read the book (and can appreciate the relevance of the reviewer's philosophical argot), and perhaps not as suited to those who are deciding if this story would be worth their time. OTOH, maybe anyone not put off by the reviewer's language and willing to read his entire review will see that s/he indeed does have The Right Stuff to plumb the rich depths of ZatAoMM. God speed, Mr Pirsig. Your book meant worlds to me.

Fezzik 10y ago
Slight tangent: I have seen a lot of mention of Zen, but not many people bring up the follow-up book, Lila. I found the second to be a more accessible and applicable-to-every-day-life sort of book, and more maturely written. I enjoyed Zen more when I was younger and Lila more as an adult; I have read both at least 4 or 5 times apiece. Both are brilliant though. And the linked review is fantastic.
- skilesare 10y ago
  Yes, Lila is great. I think there is a lot there if you are looking to make some meaning out of a seemingly random world.

dnquark 10y ago

Is there a resource in the vein of the linked review, but that explains the book (and its philosophical content) on a more basic level, for someone with no background in the subject? I was hoping that Pirsig would help me understand philosophy by placing it in a familiar and tangible setting -- that's what the title suggests. I was very disappointed. Take the idea of Quality, for example. Pirsig talks about it for half the book; this is a concept that drives him insane and is central to his life and to the narrative. I still haven't the foggiest idea of what he is talking about, pages of strange analogies notwithstanding. To me, this was a book about a troubled intellectual and his grappling with mental illness. About somebody that drives himself insane by obsessing over abstruse concepts arising from human experience. And it's a well-told story that made me think, but also made it very hard to relate to the protagonist simply because I do. not. understand. his intellectual struggle.

shorttime 10y ago
But you do! You are saying and itterating exactly how he feels when it comes to quality. You can't define what he's talking about in his book. He can't define quality. They're very similar concepts, not exact, but they provide the same feeling. How would you define quality?
- cm2012 10y ago
  How well something achieves all of its intended functions (including longevity, etc.)
- dnquark 10y ago
  I would say that quality is an abstract value judgement that requires context to be meaningful. That's why it escapes precise definition. Whenever Pirsig talks about quality, it seems that he is heavily overloading the term. What he is really trying to do is develop a set of guiding principles that makes him feel like he understands the world and his role in it. Most people use religion or science for this, but Pirsig explicitly rejects science as a way of discovering the truth (for his definition of truth), and I think he implicitly rejects religion as well. I ended up reading "Quality" as just a label that he attaches to the personal philosophy he develops instead.

tsomctl 10y ago

There's a number of times when I've finished reading a book, reading an article, listening to an album, or watching a movie, I'm left thinking "What the fuck was that?" It didn't necessarily bring joy, but it made me think, and much later I realize how good it was. Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance is the best example of this.

c141charlie 10y ago

There's a section in this book that discusses the inability of a narcissist to fix a motorcycle. As a software engineer with narcissistic tendencies, that section really struck a nerve, and inspired me to dive way deeper into our systems and try to understand "what where they thinking" when working in a legacy code base someone else designed. This curiosity has led to several aha moments that I would have prematurely dismissed as an idiotic code base designed by idiots had I not spent the time to try and understand it.

IgorPartola 10y ago

I don't know what you all are talking about. Clearly this is a great piece on how to fix motorcycles! :) I enjoyed it. The part where he talks about how a stripped screw is suddenly the most important screw in the world and you should treat it as such really stuck with me. I have used that attitude many times to get out of jam. Also, I really enjoyed his description of how he approached fixing his bike vs his friend's BMW. And also the little talk he gave in putting together the grill and the instructions manual.

manten75 10y ago

One of my favorite books about philosophy. And funny enough, a good book about motivation.

smcl 10y ago

The podcast "I don't even own a television" did an episode about the book - http://www.idontevenownatelevision.com/2015/05/22/zen-and-the-art-of-motorcycle-maintenance http://www.idontevenownatelevision.com/2015/05/22/zen-and-th... The podcast is about "bad books" so that's the angle they approach it from, but the guys are funny, very nice and aren't super cruel or anything.