5 ms·

The problem is overbooking, though. Corporations are getting preferential treatment by being allowed to sell services which they're not going to fulfill. The b

by dopu 9y ago

The problem is overbooking, though. Corporations are getting preferential treatment by being allowed to sell services which they're not going to fulfill. The boner people on HN have for objectivism really does get quite old.

tomerico 9y ago
Overbooking makes air travel more effective than, with less empty seats and less pollution per passenger. The way it eas handled can definitely be improved, but you can't argue that it is inherently bad.
- stephenr 9y ago
  > Overbooking makes air travel more effective than, with less empty seats and less pollution per passenger > but you can't argue that it is inherently bad. You're simplifying things a bit too much. You can't go from: - We want to make air travel more cost effective, and less damaging to the environment. And arrive at: - The only way to achieve this, is to sell more tickets than we have physical seats for, to ensure the plane is jam packed when it takes off. There are always alternatives, Americans just seem to be fucking brilliant at ignoring any possible alternative than their first shitty attempt.
  - ouid 9y ago
    it uses less fuel per passenger to ensure that every flight is jam packed. It's more efficient and everybody wins. There are almost no examples of situations that overbooking + auctions doesn't solve. I think you don't understand the law as it currently exists, because what happened on that united flight was in clear violation of that law. They didn't deny the man boarding, they deplaned him. This isn't something the airline is allowed to do for economic reasons, ever.
    - yazan94 9y ago
      Can you explain what you mean by the overbooking + auction system? I don't fly often and though the news has left a bitter taste in my mouth about United, I do want to understand how their system works and their flaws in a less biased way.
  - namdnay 9y ago
    What does this have to do with Americans? Overbooking is used by nearly every airline in the world.
    - galvin 9y ago
      I've never heard of any airline overbooking here in Europe. Yet they seem to manage just fine. In fact Ryanair (a budget airline) has a bunch of flights advertised for around €15 ($16~ USD)...
- yazan94 9y ago
  I'm not a frequent flye but I would really appreciate some clarification on this topic. How does an airline selling more than the number of physical seats it has increase efficiency/effectiveness more than if it sold the same number of tickets as the number of seats available? Do they have that big of a problem with people canceling flights? What are the return policies usually for flight tickets?
wutbrodo 9y ago
> Corporations are getting preferential treatment by being allowed to sell services which they're not going to fulfill. Does the contract of carriage say the service they're selling is a guaranteed flight? Spoiler: No. I hate the air travel experience as much as the next guy, but for the life of me I can't understand the derangement that seems to take hold of people when they start talking about. All else held equal, reducing airline costs (for example, by increasing utilization as with overbooked flights) brings prices down. It reminds me of when everyone I knew started complaining about airlines charging for luggage. When I'd ask them "I never fly with luggage, why should I bear the cost (fuel, opportunity cost, etc) of you packing too much", the most I got was some sputtering about how they didn't see why prices would be affected, even from people who I know knew much better. > The boner people on HN have for objectivism really does get quite old. Don't confuse your economic illiteracy with other people's support of objectivism. The perspective you're describing isn't even particularly libertarian, let alone Objectivist (and no, I'm not personally a fan of either of those philosophies).
- kwhitefoot 9y ago
  Contracts are irrelevant here because there is no competition in that market, you have to accept the contract or walk to your destination. For contracts to be meaningful the parties have to be of comparable power and both parties must have the opportunity to choose a competing good or service. This is plainly not the case here.
  - wutbrodo 9y ago
    Sure? Except that has nothing to do with what I was talking about. The irrelevant statement here is yours. I was specifically rebutting the claim that airlines are getting "special treatment" [by the government] by being allowed to sell services they don't fulfill. The service they're selling is not "a guaranteed flight". Words have meaning and facts matter, beyond "Airlines bad, pick a side". It's possible to think that they're anti-competitive and shitty without making entirely false claims about them (as the gp comment did).

by dopu 9y ago

tomerico 9y ago

Overbooking makes air travel more effective than, with less empty seats and less pollution per passenger. The way it eas handled can definitely be improved, but you can't argue that it is inherently bad.

stephenr 9y ago
> Overbooking makes air travel more effective than, with less empty seats and less pollution per passenger > but you can't argue that it is inherently bad. You're simplifying things a bit too much. You can't go from: - We want to make air travel more cost effective, and less damaging to the environment. And arrive at: - The only way to achieve this, is to sell more tickets than we have physical seats for, to ensure the plane is jam packed when it takes off. There are always alternatives, Americans just seem to be fucking brilliant at ignoring any possible alternative than their first shitty attempt.
- ouid 9y ago
  it uses less fuel per passenger to ensure that every flight is jam packed. It's more efficient and everybody wins. There are almost no examples of situations that overbooking + auctions doesn't solve. I think you don't understand the law as it currently exists, because what happened on that united flight was in clear violation of that law. They didn't deny the man boarding, they deplaned him. This isn't something the airline is allowed to do for economic reasons, ever.
  - yazan94 9y ago
    Can you explain what you mean by the overbooking + auction system? I don't fly often and though the news has left a bitter taste in my mouth about United, I do want to understand how their system works and their flaws in a less biased way.
- namdnay 9y ago
  What does this have to do with Americans? Overbooking is used by nearly every airline in the world.
  - galvin 9y ago
    I've never heard of any airline overbooking here in Europe. Yet they seem to manage just fine. In fact Ryanair (a budget airline) has a bunch of flights advertised for around €15 ($16~ USD)...
yazan94 9y ago
I'm not a frequent flye but I would really appreciate some clarification on this topic. How does an airline selling more than the number of physical seats it has increase efficiency/effectiveness more than if it sold the same number of tickets as the number of seats available? Do they have that big of a problem with people canceling flights? What are the return policies usually for flight tickets?

wutbrodo 9y ago

> Corporations are getting preferential treatment by being allowed to sell services which they're not going to fulfill. Does the contract of carriage say the service they're selling is a guaranteed flight? Spoiler: No. I hate the air travel experience as much as the next guy, but for the life of me I can't understand the derangement that seems to take hold of people when they start talking about. All else held equal, reducing airline costs (for example, by increasing utilization as with overbooked flights) brings prices down. It reminds me of when everyone I knew started complaining about airlines charging for luggage. When I'd ask them "I never fly with luggage, why should I bear the cost (fuel, opportunity cost, etc) of you packing too much", the most I got was some sputtering about how they didn't see why prices would be affected, even from people who I know knew much better. > The boner people on HN have for objectivism really does get quite old. Don't confuse your economic illiteracy with other people's support of objectivism. The perspective you're describing isn't even particularly libertarian, let alone Objectivist (and no, I'm not personally a fan of either of those philosophies).

kwhitefoot 9y ago
Contracts are irrelevant here because there is no competition in that market, you have to accept the contract or walk to your destination. For contracts to be meaningful the parties have to be of comparable power and both parties must have the opportunity to choose a competing good or service. This is plainly not the case here.
- wutbrodo 9y ago
  Sure? Except that has nothing to do with what I was talking about. The irrelevant statement here is yours. I was specifically rebutting the claim that airlines are getting "special treatment" [by the government] by being allowed to sell services they don't fulfill. The service they're selling is not "a guaranteed flight". Words have meaning and facts matter, beyond "Airlines bad, pick a side". It's possible to think that they're anti-competitive and shitty without making entirely false claims about them (as the gp comment did).