7 ms·

Price gouging. It's not really free trade when options are limited. It's not really free trade when "free will" has been subverted. The notion of free trade

Price gouging. It's not really free trade when options are limited. It's not really free trade when "free will" has been subverted. The notion of free trade sounds good at an individual level but does it really exist at a societal level? I think it's like libertarianism. It's sounds plausible at the micro level but doesn't scale well. I think the starting point you seek is itself worthy of criticism.

jstanley 9y ago
> The notion of free trade sounds good at an individual level but does it really exist at a societal level? The good news is "society" isn't buying and selling houses, or negotiating rental agreements. Individuals are.
- maxsilver 9y ago
  > The good news is "society" isn't buying and selling houses, or negotiating rental agreements. Individuals are. That's not really true. If you define "society" as "large groups of people", then they absolutely are buying and selling houses, and negotiating rental agreements. In my hometown, over 50% of single-family houses are owned by major corporations. And some of those corporations are listed and traded, their stock exists in part inside wealthy and upper-middle-class people's 401Ks. "Society" is absolutely buying up houses, and negotiating rental rates.
  - vonmoltke 9y ago
    > In my hometown, over 50% of single-family houses are owned by major corporations. I'm curious as to what town this is, and how many are bank-owned properties that haven't been unloaded yet. This sounds like an unusual situation, considering the places I have lived.
    - tunap 9y ago
      Phoenix, here. If I wanted to move from my grandfathered rental in 85377(VN part of town) to 85020(crack central), I would pay more for the same sqft. My landlord mentioned raising rent back in December, I told him to list it & give me 2 weeks notice. He never received a single call in 30 days. But, yeah, it's "demand" pushing rates up. From 2013, 25% of acquisitions made by funds: http://archive.azcentral.com/business/realestate/articles/20130305wealthy-investors-keep-buying-metro-phoenix-homes-rent.html http://archive.azcentral.com/business/realestate/articles/20... edit: no shortage of For Sale & empty homes up here, too. Multi-million dollar homes are stagnating on the market for years, and subsequently, plenty are for rent, too.
    - maxsilver 9y ago
      > This sounds like an unusual situation, considering the places I've lived. That number is slightly higher than average, but the situation isn't uncommon. In fact, it's common enough that the Federal Government itself is doing it too, in a dozen or so major markets (Atlanta, Seattle, Chicago, Los Angeles, Minneapolis, etc) http://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/25/governments-fannie-mae-will-back-pe-giant-blackstones-rental-business-debt.html http://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/25/governments-fannie-mae-will-b... > I'm curious as to what town this is, These are the stats from my small hometown specifically : http://michiganradio.org/post/winners-and-losers-grand-rapids-housing-boom http://michiganradio.org/post/winners-and-losers-grand-rapid...
- lovich 9y ago
  society is requiring you to participate in this market however. You can't just take a tarp and set up a lean to in large parts of the US or you'll be kicked out, arrested, or even killed
- yequalsx 9y ago
  You didn't address any of the points I made. It's like libertarianism. Sounds right at the individual level but it doesn't scale. You also completely ignored price gouging and other factors that distort market forces. You appear to assume all parties have equal bargaining power and pricing power. You are looking at things superficially.
  - jstanley 9y ago
    The only thing there is is individuals transacting with each other. "Society", as an independent entity, is a mirage. And yes. It probably is like libertarianism. I am a libertarian, and I don't take that as an insult.
    - dwaltrip 9y ago
      "Society" is the dynamics that emerge when groups of humans form settlements and organize themselves together for various purposes (food, safety, enjoyment, etc). Unsurprisingly, these dynamics differ from those found in isolated, individual humans.
    - smaddox 9y ago
      Would you agree that the Nash equilibrium is not identically equal to the global utility optimum? If so, then you almost certainly agree that what is best for an individual actor is not necessarily what is best for Society (all people in a political aggregate) at large. In plain terms, everyone acting selfishly does not necessarily lead to everyone getting what they need.
      - cousin_it 9y ago
        I have sympathy for your argument, but there's a small note of confusion. Namely, libertarian economists know a ton of game theory. In fact, I only got into game theory due to reading econ texts by writers I later found to be libertarian-leaning. Wouldn't it be a bit strange if the prisoner's dilemma really was a knockdown argument against their views? Maybe there's more than meets the eye?
    - deleted 9y ago
battlebot 9y ago
I think you sell libertarianism short by quite a bit. After all, it is the closest description of the mechanism by which humanity operated quite successfully up until oligarchs and rent-seekers captured government and subverted the individual. I haven't experienced actual libertarian governance or free markets in my lifetime and probably never will. It's funny, everyone tries to keep installing some form of Marxism and that never goes over well and they avoid any other solutions. I don't want people all living in shanties like in Rio and Sao Paulo, but human greed knows no bounds and has not inherent ethics and no matter what system we put in place, the same outcomes seem to take place.

jstanley 9y ago

> The notion of free trade sounds good at an individual level but does it really exist at a societal level? The good news is "society" isn't buying and selling houses, or negotiating rental agreements. Individuals are.

maxsilver 9y ago
> The good news is "society" isn't buying and selling houses, or negotiating rental agreements. Individuals are. That's not really true. If you define "society" as "large groups of people", then they absolutely are buying and selling houses, and negotiating rental agreements. In my hometown, over 50% of single-family houses are owned by major corporations. And some of those corporations are listed and traded, their stock exists in part inside wealthy and upper-middle-class people's 401Ks. "Society" is absolutely buying up houses, and negotiating rental rates.
- vonmoltke 9y ago
  > In my hometown, over 50% of single-family houses are owned by major corporations. I'm curious as to what town this is, and how many are bank-owned properties that haven't been unloaded yet. This sounds like an unusual situation, considering the places I have lived.
  - tunap 9y ago
    Phoenix, here. If I wanted to move from my grandfathered rental in 85377(VN part of town) to 85020(crack central), I would pay more for the same sqft. My landlord mentioned raising rent back in December, I told him to list it & give me 2 weeks notice. He never received a single call in 30 days. But, yeah, it's "demand" pushing rates up. From 2013, 25% of acquisitions made by funds: http://archive.azcentral.com/business/realestate/articles/20130305wealthy-investors-keep-buying-metro-phoenix-homes-rent.html http://archive.azcentral.com/business/realestate/articles/20... edit: no shortage of For Sale & empty homes up here, too. Multi-million dollar homes are stagnating on the market for years, and subsequently, plenty are for rent, too.
  - maxsilver 9y ago
    > This sounds like an unusual situation, considering the places I've lived. That number is slightly higher than average, but the situation isn't uncommon. In fact, it's common enough that the Federal Government itself is doing it too, in a dozen or so major markets (Atlanta, Seattle, Chicago, Los Angeles, Minneapolis, etc) http://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/25/governments-fannie-mae-will-back-pe-giant-blackstones-rental-business-debt.html http://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/25/governments-fannie-mae-will-b... > I'm curious as to what town this is, These are the stats from my small hometown specifically : http://michiganradio.org/post/winners-and-losers-grand-rapids-housing-boom http://michiganradio.org/post/winners-and-losers-grand-rapid...
lovich 9y ago
society is requiring you to participate in this market however. You can't just take a tarp and set up a lean to in large parts of the US or you'll be kicked out, arrested, or even killed
yequalsx 9y ago
You didn't address any of the points I made. It's like libertarianism. Sounds right at the individual level but it doesn't scale. You also completely ignored price gouging and other factors that distort market forces. You appear to assume all parties have equal bargaining power and pricing power. You are looking at things superficially.
- jstanley 9y ago
  The only thing there is is individuals transacting with each other. "Society", as an independent entity, is a mirage. And yes. It probably is like libertarianism. I am a libertarian, and I don't take that as an insult.
  - dwaltrip 9y ago
    "Society" is the dynamics that emerge when groups of humans form settlements and organize themselves together for various purposes (food, safety, enjoyment, etc). Unsurprisingly, these dynamics differ from those found in isolated, individual humans.
  - smaddox 9y ago
    Would you agree that the Nash equilibrium is not identically equal to the global utility optimum? If so, then you almost certainly agree that what is best for an individual actor is not necessarily what is best for Society (all people in a political aggregate) at large. In plain terms, everyone acting selfishly does not necessarily lead to everyone getting what they need.
    - cousin_it 9y ago
      I have sympathy for your argument, but there's a small note of confusion. Namely, libertarian economists know a ton of game theory. In fact, I only got into game theory due to reading econ texts by writers I later found to be libertarian-leaning. Wouldn't it be a bit strange if the prisoner's dilemma really was a knockdown argument against their views? Maybe there's more than meets the eye?
  - deleted 9y ago

battlebot 9y ago

I think you sell libertarianism short by quite a bit. After all, it is the closest description of the mechanism by which humanity operated quite successfully up until oligarchs and rent-seekers captured government and subverted the individual. I haven't experienced actual libertarian governance or free markets in my lifetime and probably never will. It's funny, everyone tries to keep installing some form of Marxism and that never goes over well and they avoid any other solutions. I don't want people all living in shanties like in Rio and Sao Paulo, but human greed knows no bounds and has not inherent ethics and no matter what system we put in place, the same outcomes seem to take place.