5 ms·

That kind of religious thought is not Calvinist in the least. Here's an actual quote from one of Calvin's sermons on the topic: "The good things given by God a

by phd514 9y ago

That kind of religious thought is not Calvinist in the least. Here's an actual quote from one of Calvin's sermons on the topic: "The good things given by God are but a path to lead us to him, a ladder to ascend on high, not a tomb in which to bury ourselves. We should not cling to happiness or greet its passing with a hollow laugh, for it is fleeting. Nor should we exult when men applaud us, as if we had already attained our reward for a virtuous life on earth. No, we are determined to press on through good report and bad. Such is the measured and moderate path pursued by the believer. We do not get drowsy, still less intoxicated, when times are good. And we are always willing to abandon everything if God requires. This is not how it is with unbelievers. Prosperity goes immediately to their heads, fills them to bursting; they are so befuddled that not once do they spare a thought for God or the spiritual life. In time they grow hard, and when misfortune comes they grind their teeth and blaspheme against God."

woodandsteel 9y ago
You seem to know what your are talking about. So let me ask you, if it was not Calvin who was the source of this idea, then which religious leader was?
- phd514 9y ago
  That's hard to say since that general idea is probably among the most common elements of religions going back as far as we have records of religion, e.g., Mesopotamia, etc. -- curry favor with the gods through some act of devotion or virtue (though the latter works only if they're "good" gods) and they'll owe you and grant you some token in return. On the other hand, cross them and they'll smite you. There are relatively few strains of religious thought that decouple prosperity from pleasing gods or God, but the Calvinist strain in Christianity is definitely one of them.
- vivekd 9y ago
  The idea of "getting rich" as a sign of gods favor was probably started in modern USA by the Pentecostal and charismatic movements probably around the 50s. It is called prosperity theology and Calvinists have been some of it's most notable opponents. Famous modern Calvinist preachers like Paul Washer and John Piper have made a name for themselves by criticizing prosperity theology. That said, even prosperity theology, as perverted as it is in my opinion, still sticks to basic Christian tenets like "blessed are the poor" and the importance of charity to the poor.
  - btown 9y ago
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology
coldtea 9y ago
In the end though, it doesn't matter what Calvin said precisely, but how it was interpreted by calvinists. Adam Smith wasn't exactly the neo-liberal, free-market trumps all champion either.
- phd514 9y ago
  Given that Calvin's stated and recorded views run precisely counter to those ideas, it would require some pretty significant mental contortions to characterize anyone with those views as "Calvinist". That reminds me of the recent statement by the NYT's Dean Baquet that they don't "get religion" [http://www.npr.org/2016/12/08/504806512/new-york-times-executive-editor-on-the-new-terrain-of-covering-trump http://www.npr.org/2016/12/08/504806512/new-york-times-execu...]. It's certainly true that many current ideas and worldviews have been influenced by religious thought, but if one wishes to speak credibly about such things, getting some basic facts correct should be among the prerequisites. Apart from that, one won't effectively address the issue and is likely to come across simply as an anti-religious bigot. For some, that may not be a concern, but given the current environment of "fake news" and "alternative facts", I'd suggest that it's a counterproductive approach.
  - coldtea 9y ago
    >Given that Calvin's stated and recorded views run precisely counter to those ideas, it would require some pretty significant mental contortions to characterize anyone with those views as "Calvinist". So, just like being pro-war, racist, etc, but considering oneself a good Christian? >but if one wishes to speak credibly about such things, getting some basic facts correct should be among the prerequisites. "What Calvin wrote" and "what calvinists believe" are two almost orthogonal topics. Even more so "what calvinists practice in real life". Moreover you won't find many scholars that disagree with regards to whether calvinism had an influence on seeing wealthy as "good", e.g: http://www.ucdenver.edu/faculty-staff/bgoodric/Pages/Protestant-Calvinist-Work-Ethic.aspx http://www.ucdenver.edu/faculty-staff/bgoodric/Pages/Protest... "Now, it's rather natural, if one is a Calvinist, to be constantly looking for any little indications that God does approve of oneself, that God has predestined one to be redeemed, that one is "of the elect" of God. And how might God give any promising little hints? Well, material success is one way. If one has a successful business, God seems to be smiling on one! And as for those poor destitute farmers who just lost everything they owned due to a drought, well, God is all-powerful, and must have decided that they should suffer. And who are we miserable sinners to disagree, and thwart the plans of God? Thus, the Calvinist develops a European version of India's infamous caste system. In ancient India, foreign conquerors solidified their conquest by imposing a religion on the populace. According to this religion, there were set classes or castes of people, and anyone born into the poor castes must have done something in a previous life to deserve such punishment. Similarly, the Calvinist attributes prosperity and poverty to the mysterious workings of God. (Notice that in both cases these beliefs serve to legitimize whatever the status quo power is. The wealthy and powerful, whether in ancient India or in post-Renaissance Switzerland or 18th century Scotland, are presented as justifiably wealthy. And the poor or "untouchable" are dismissed as unworthy of any better treatment. These are classic examples of ideology.) Dickens captured exactly this peculiar combination of self-punishment, self-righteousness, and misanthropy in his character Scrooge. Scrooge isn't a simple hoarder. Scrooge's avarice is a result of his secularized "Calvinist work ethic.""

by phd514 9y ago

woodandsteel 9y ago

You seem to know what your are talking about. So let me ask you, if it was not Calvin who was the source of this idea, then which religious leader was?

phd514 9y ago
That's hard to say since that general idea is probably among the most common elements of religions going back as far as we have records of religion, e.g., Mesopotamia, etc. -- curry favor with the gods through some act of devotion or virtue (though the latter works only if they're "good" gods) and they'll owe you and grant you some token in return. On the other hand, cross them and they'll smite you. There are relatively few strains of religious thought that decouple prosperity from pleasing gods or God, but the Calvinist strain in Christianity is definitely one of them.
vivekd 9y ago
The idea of "getting rich" as a sign of gods favor was probably started in modern USA by the Pentecostal and charismatic movements probably around the 50s. It is called prosperity theology and Calvinists have been some of it's most notable opponents. Famous modern Calvinist preachers like Paul Washer and John Piper have made a name for themselves by criticizing prosperity theology. That said, even prosperity theology, as perverted as it is in my opinion, still sticks to basic Christian tenets like "blessed are the poor" and the importance of charity to the poor.
- btown 9y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology

coldtea 9y ago

In the end though, it doesn't matter what Calvin said precisely, but how it was interpreted by calvinists. Adam Smith wasn't exactly the neo-liberal, free-market trumps all champion either.

phd514 9y ago
Given that Calvin's stated and recorded views run precisely counter to those ideas, it would require some pretty significant mental contortions to characterize anyone with those views as "Calvinist". That reminds me of the recent statement by the NYT's Dean Baquet that they don't "get religion" [http://www.npr.org/2016/12/08/504806512/new-york-times-executive-editor-on-the-new-terrain-of-covering-trump http://www.npr.org/2016/12/08/504806512/new-york-times-execu...]. It's certainly true that many current ideas and worldviews have been influenced by religious thought, but if one wishes to speak credibly about such things, getting some basic facts correct should be among the prerequisites. Apart from that, one won't effectively address the issue and is likely to come across simply as an anti-religious bigot. For some, that may not be a concern, but given the current environment of "fake news" and "alternative facts", I'd suggest that it's a counterproductive approach.
- coldtea 9y ago
  >Given that Calvin's stated and recorded views run precisely counter to those ideas, it would require some pretty significant mental contortions to characterize anyone with those views as "Calvinist". So, just like being pro-war, racist, etc, but considering oneself a good Christian? >but if one wishes to speak credibly about such things, getting some basic facts correct should be among the prerequisites. "What Calvin wrote" and "what calvinists believe" are two almost orthogonal topics. Even more so "what calvinists practice in real life". Moreover you won't find many scholars that disagree with regards to whether calvinism had an influence on seeing wealthy as "good", e.g: http://www.ucdenver.edu/faculty-staff/bgoodric/Pages/Protestant-Calvinist-Work-Ethic.aspx http://www.ucdenver.edu/faculty-staff/bgoodric/Pages/Protest... "Now, it's rather natural, if one is a Calvinist, to be constantly looking for any little indications that God does approve of oneself, that God has predestined one to be redeemed, that one is "of the elect" of God. And how might God give any promising little hints? Well, material success is one way. If one has a successful business, God seems to be smiling on one! And as for those poor destitute farmers who just lost everything they owned due to a drought, well, God is all-powerful, and must have decided that they should suffer. And who are we miserable sinners to disagree, and thwart the plans of God? Thus, the Calvinist develops a European version of India's infamous caste system. In ancient India, foreign conquerors solidified their conquest by imposing a religion on the populace. According to this religion, there were set classes or castes of people, and anyone born into the poor castes must have done something in a previous life to deserve such punishment. Similarly, the Calvinist attributes prosperity and poverty to the mysterious workings of God. (Notice that in both cases these beliefs serve to legitimize whatever the status quo power is. The wealthy and powerful, whether in ancient India or in post-Renaissance Switzerland or 18th century Scotland, are presented as justifiably wealthy. And the poor or "untouchable" are dismissed as unworthy of any better treatment. These are classic examples of ideology.) Dickens captured exactly this peculiar combination of self-punishment, self-righteousness, and misanthropy in his character Scrooge. Scrooge isn't a simple hoarder. Scrooge's avarice is a result of his secularized "Calvinist work ethic.""