5 ms·

> What if modern, postindustrial society is simply better suited to women? Alternative theory: Society is failing our boys.

rubashov 16y ago
Alternative theory: "modern, postindustrial society" means dysfunctional economy. > Men dominate just two of the 15 job categories projected to grow the most over the next decade: janitor and computer engineer. Women have everything else--nursing, home health assistance, child care, food preparation. We're living in a country where almost all the projected growth professions produce no capital or exports. This is really all about a shitty job market, heavy on consumption and health care, not some boys vs girls thread.
- chipsy 16y ago
  See also: everyone who's written about how continued GDP growth in industrial countries is both pointless in terms of improving quality of life, and a bad idea environmentally. For example, commercialized child care and food service are a huge distortion of traditional household duties.
  - seanc 16y ago
    Links please? I have not read these studies and would like to.
sliverstorm 16y ago
I'd argue not failing but carefully emasculating. Old-fashioned masculinity has been systematically devalued, and many of its' traits demonized.
- jtbigwoo 16y ago
  Speaking from my experience, men are responsible for their own emasculation. I know plenty of good guys who'd make great nurses, physical therapists, or home health aids. These are jobs that require a fair amount of physical strength and stamina in addition to individual initiative and focus. (That's what men are supposed to be good at, right?) Unfortunately, they're also jobs that are stereotypically female and somehow that makes them off limits. Instead, they take two paths: 1. spend thousands to train for a declining industry (there are two underemployed airline mechanics on my block) 2. expect that good paying semi-skilled jobs should be widely available for every high school graduate. One other odd fact: In my neighborhood, this problem really only affects white men. There are quite a few black male medical assistants and nurses and almost no white ones.
  - Retric 16y ago
    There is a stereotypical male nurse. Generally employed by mental hospitals or mental institutions (granted it's often portrayed as a hulking female, but it’s still a reasonable job for a body builder). Also, EMT's are fairly gender neutral or even male biased.
    - sliverstorm 16y ago
      All three categories of emergency responder are, from my experience, still male biased. I don't have extensive first hand experience with EMT's, but it seems the police force has more females than the paramedics or the firefighters.
- dfranke 16y ago
  I've seen this asserted dozens of times before, and even though I agree with the observation, the way I see it phrased invariably drives me nuts. Out of all the traditionally "masculine" traits that are in decline, the ones most worth saving are ruggedness and personal responsibility, yet the subtext of your assertion is a portrayal of men as helpless victims. Social change is not a conspiracy. There's nothing "careful" or "systematic" about masculinity being devalued. If men don't like it, and we shouldn't, then the way to reverse the trend is simply for us to stand up for ourselves and refuse to take part.
  - sliverstorm 16y ago
    How would you phrase it? I know it's not a conspiracy, and I know there's no orchestrating hand. I was phrasing it the same way as the 'Invisible Hand' theory of economics. There sure as hell is no Invisible Hand, but we call it that because that's what it sometimes looks like.
    - dfranke 16y ago
      I'd phrase it by more carefully separating the "is" from the "ought". "Modern, postindustrial society is simply better suited to women" gets the "is" part pretty close, though I'd say it as "modern, postindustrial society is less well-suited to men than what preceded it", because the former misleadingly implies a men-against-women zero-sum game. The "ought" part is what I said in my previous comment: men ought to recognize that the trend exists, and when they hear masculine virtue demonized, ought to stand up for it by word and by example.
    - gaius 16y ago
      Of course there is an orchestrating hand. This is what teachers are taught to teach in teaching colleges. This is why men who want to become teachers (here in the UK at least) are forced through the humiliating process of proving that they are not paedophiles. Perhaps the political theorists behind it haven't thought it through, but emasculating men is policy.
      - 16y ago
dfranke 16y ago
How is that an alternative theory? It reads to me as the same statement, except with an implicit value judgment (men deserve/should-be-entitled-to something better suited to them) layered over top of it.
- noodle 16y ago
  imo, it isn't the same statement. or it doesn't have to be. the original sentiment was more that this aspect of society has evolved into this state naturally. the alternative theory is stating that this aspect of society was molded into shape due to specific pressures. /not a value judgment on either statements

rubashov 16y ago

Alternative theory: "modern, postindustrial society" means dysfunctional economy. > Men dominate just two of the 15 job categories projected to grow the most over the next decade: janitor and computer engineer. Women have everything else--nursing, home health assistance, child care, food preparation. We're living in a country where almost all the projected growth professions produce no capital or exports. This is really all about a shitty job market, heavy on consumption and health care, not some boys vs girls thread.

chipsy 16y ago
See also: everyone who's written about how continued GDP growth in industrial countries is both pointless in terms of improving quality of life, and a bad idea environmentally. For example, commercialized child care and food service are a huge distortion of traditional household duties.
- seanc 16y ago
  Links please? I have not read these studies and would like to.

sliverstorm 16y ago

I'd argue not failing but carefully emasculating. Old-fashioned masculinity has been systematically devalued, and many of its' traits demonized.

jtbigwoo 16y ago
Speaking from my experience, men are responsible for their own emasculation. I know plenty of good guys who'd make great nurses, physical therapists, or home health aids. These are jobs that require a fair amount of physical strength and stamina in addition to individual initiative and focus. (That's what men are supposed to be good at, right?) Unfortunately, they're also jobs that are stereotypically female and somehow that makes them off limits. Instead, they take two paths: 1. spend thousands to train for a declining industry (there are two underemployed airline mechanics on my block) 2. expect that good paying semi-skilled jobs should be widely available for every high school graduate. One other odd fact: In my neighborhood, this problem really only affects white men. There are quite a few black male medical assistants and nurses and almost no white ones.
- Retric 16y ago
  There is a stereotypical male nurse. Generally employed by mental hospitals or mental institutions (granted it's often portrayed as a hulking female, but it’s still a reasonable job for a body builder). Also, EMT's are fairly gender neutral or even male biased.
  - sliverstorm 16y ago
    All three categories of emergency responder are, from my experience, still male biased. I don't have extensive first hand experience with EMT's, but it seems the police force has more females than the paramedics or the firefighters.
dfranke 16y ago
I've seen this asserted dozens of times before, and even though I agree with the observation, the way I see it phrased invariably drives me nuts. Out of all the traditionally "masculine" traits that are in decline, the ones most worth saving are ruggedness and personal responsibility, yet the subtext of your assertion is a portrayal of men as helpless victims. Social change is not a conspiracy. There's nothing "careful" or "systematic" about masculinity being devalued. If men don't like it, and we shouldn't, then the way to reverse the trend is simply for us to stand up for ourselves and refuse to take part.
- sliverstorm 16y ago
  How would you phrase it? I know it's not a conspiracy, and I know there's no orchestrating hand. I was phrasing it the same way as the 'Invisible Hand' theory of economics. There sure as hell is no Invisible Hand, but we call it that because that's what it sometimes looks like.
  - dfranke 16y ago
    I'd phrase it by more carefully separating the "is" from the "ought". "Modern, postindustrial society is simply better suited to women" gets the "is" part pretty close, though I'd say it as "modern, postindustrial society is less well-suited to men than what preceded it", because the former misleadingly implies a men-against-women zero-sum game. The "ought" part is what I said in my previous comment: men ought to recognize that the trend exists, and when they hear masculine virtue demonized, ought to stand up for it by word and by example.
  - gaius 16y ago
    Of course there is an orchestrating hand. This is what teachers are taught to teach in teaching colleges. This is why men who want to become teachers (here in the UK at least) are forced through the humiliating process of proving that they are not paedophiles. Perhaps the political theorists behind it haven't thought it through, but emasculating men is policy.
    - 16y ago

dfranke 16y ago

How is that an alternative theory? It reads to me as the same statement, except with an implicit value judgment (men deserve/should-be-entitled-to something better suited to them) layered over top of it.

noodle 16y ago
imo, it isn't the same statement. or it doesn't have to be. the original sentiment was more that this aspect of society has evolved into this state naturally. the alternative theory is stating that this aspect of society was molded into shape due to specific pressures. /not a value judgment on either statements