4 ms·

I think Utah's success is not only due to the willingness of the Utah population, but also to their proactive pragmatic disposition. And let's be honest here,

I think Utah's success is not only due to the willingness of the Utah population, but also to their proactive pragmatic disposition. And let's be honest here, the Mormon influence is a major factor both in instilling the willingness to do something and in creating a pragmatic, solutions-oriented culture. I'm not a Mormon, in fact, I'm a staunch atheist, but I can't deny the positive effects some religions seem to have when it comes to encouraging community involvement. So I think part of the answer to the question of "how do we rebuild community" has to do with religion. Unfortunately, as an atheist, I'm probably part of the problem here.

6stringmerc 9y ago
I remember thinking how amazing the Mormon culture was as a child growing up for a handful of years in Utah, until our next door neighbor went to Federal Prison for Fraud. Then my Parents explained to me the Mormons had a habit of exploiting social services and manipulation that would put the Gypsies to shame. "Never invite just one Mormon over, they'll drink your liquor cabinet dry. Invite two, so they watch each other like Hawks, and neither will ever touch a drop." Cults are a trip man.
- WillPostForFood 9y ago
  Its interesting how in some circles it is totally cool to publicly slander a group like the Mormons. Take what you wrote and substitute "Muslim" or "jew" and people would, in one second, write you off as an ignorant racist.
  - ams6110 9y ago
    It's too bad nobody can even tell a joke anymore.
    - renegadesensei 9y ago
      I agree people are often overly sensitive, but Hacker News isn't really a place for jokes and 6stringmerc's comment didn't seem to be an attempt at humor.
    - WillPostForFood 9y ago
      It's just telling which jokes are socially acceptable here, and which aren't.
  - logfromblammo 9y ago
    That is largely a matter of history, and not because religious beliefs should never be ridiculed. Jews have necessarily become overly defensive against those who attack their religion, because of the Holocaust, and Muslims have always attacked those who question, oppose, or even just ignore Islam, as a means to reinforce and expand their own religion. To put that Muslim practice into perspective, look at how Scientology reacts to its critics. As a religion, LDS relies more heavily on the tithe than on attacking critics. They don't care if you think their religion is nuts, because they have huge, heaping piles of money, and enough local political power in Utah to ensure that government can't be used against them. The tithe creates psychological investment in the religion, which helps prevent its members from questioning it. I would very much like to have the ability to openly ridicule Judaism and Islam as much as I could openly ridicule LDS, but it just so happens that in practice, Mormons are (as a whole) much nicer and more tolerant people than Jews and Muslims, to the point where I don't fear that they will try to damage or destroy my public reputation, career, or health for no other reason than the expression of my opinions towards their religions. That large number of people who can publicly slander a religion without retaliation is actually a point in favor of that religion.
moduspol 9y ago
And not to discount any progress they've made--but you almost have to take with a grain of salt whenever you hear about some big social progress being made in an area that's nearly 90% ethnically homogenous. These things are a lot easier to do when you're not simultaneously dealing with cultural disconnects. I'm glad it worked for Utah, and it'd probably work in Canada, Vermont, or Sweden. That doesn't mean it'll work well in Chicago or New York.

6stringmerc 9y ago

I remember thinking how amazing the Mormon culture was as a child growing up for a handful of years in Utah, until our next door neighbor went to Federal Prison for Fraud. Then my Parents explained to me the Mormons had a habit of exploiting social services and manipulation that would put the Gypsies to shame. "Never invite just one Mormon over, they'll drink your liquor cabinet dry. Invite two, so they watch each other like Hawks, and neither will ever touch a drop." Cults are a trip man.

WillPostForFood 9y ago
Its interesting how in some circles it is totally cool to publicly slander a group like the Mormons. Take what you wrote and substitute "Muslim" or "jew" and people would, in one second, write you off as an ignorant racist.
- ams6110 9y ago
  It's too bad nobody can even tell a joke anymore.
  - renegadesensei 9y ago
    I agree people are often overly sensitive, but Hacker News isn't really a place for jokes and 6stringmerc's comment didn't seem to be an attempt at humor.
  - WillPostForFood 9y ago
    It's just telling which jokes are socially acceptable here, and which aren't.
- logfromblammo 9y ago
  That is largely a matter of history, and not because religious beliefs should never be ridiculed. Jews have necessarily become overly defensive against those who attack their religion, because of the Holocaust, and Muslims have always attacked those who question, oppose, or even just ignore Islam, as a means to reinforce and expand their own religion. To put that Muslim practice into perspective, look at how Scientology reacts to its critics. As a religion, LDS relies more heavily on the tithe than on attacking critics. They don't care if you think their religion is nuts, because they have huge, heaping piles of money, and enough local political power in Utah to ensure that government can't be used against them. The tithe creates psychological investment in the religion, which helps prevent its members from questioning it. I would very much like to have the ability to openly ridicule Judaism and Islam as much as I could openly ridicule LDS, but it just so happens that in practice, Mormons are (as a whole) much nicer and more tolerant people than Jews and Muslims, to the point where I don't fear that they will try to damage or destroy my public reputation, career, or health for no other reason than the expression of my opinions towards their religions. That large number of people who can publicly slander a religion without retaliation is actually a point in favor of that religion.

moduspol 9y ago

And not to discount any progress they've made--but you almost have to take with a grain of salt whenever you hear about some big social progress being made in an area that's nearly 90% ethnically homogenous. These things are a lot easier to do when you're not simultaneously dealing with cultural disconnects. I'm glad it worked for Utah, and it'd probably work in Canada, Vermont, or Sweden. That doesn't mean it'll work well in Chicago or New York.