7 ms·

The advice still stands. You have nothing to gain from speaking to the police without an attorney, and everything to lose.

derefr 9y ago
I guess, in the case of a crime committed in my neighbourhood, where I saw something, I see myself as having the safety of my neighbourhood to gain.
- eriknstr 9y ago
  And also, if someone was murdered a few blocks down and then you refuse to say anything and say that you want your lawyer, won't that just needlessly make them suspect you for the murder? I'm all for encryption and a right to privacy and so on but I mean when it's obvious they just want to solve a crime and they are looking for info from you as a witness, well I don't see any reason not to be helpful.
  - gardnr 9y ago
    No, it would not give them reason to suspect you of the murder. You can learn more from a lawyer here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE
  - lj3 9y ago
    > And also, if someone was murdered a few blocks down and then you refuse to say anything and say that you want your lawyer, won't that just needlessly make them suspect you for the murder? You watch too much TV. I know it's hard, but when talking about real life law enforcement, try to forget everything you've ever seen about it on TV. It's about as accurate as the hacking scenes in NCIS.
  - Clubber 9y ago
    Saying something you would think is harmless might very well lead them to suspect you. It's not the police's job to decide your guilt or innocence, it's their job to collect evidence and find someone the state can prosecute. Even if you are innocent, it will cost you hundreds of thousand of dollars and being arrested and innocent goes on your record. The justice system in the US is completely broken. You should be very afraid.
  - bitwize 9y ago
    As I understand it, I suppose it could make the cops suspicious, but "So-and-so refused to answer questions and asked to speak to a lawyer first" is legally inadmissible in court as evidence against you.
    - dragonwriter 9y ago
      If the police are suspicious of you, it makes it more likely that they will be inclined to view information recieved from other sources in a light unfavorable to you, and devote resources to investigating you rather than others. Depending on how focussed that gets, you run into the "Three Felonies a Day" problem.
      - rootusrootus 9y ago
        To be fair, if you read up on the 'three felonies a day' book, you find that most of the examples given are fairly contrived. Some of them are things you should absolutely know are likely to be illegal, the rest are situations that require significant legal contortions to be plausible and are unlikely to survive scrutiny by a judge. Average Joe doesn't really go around committing three felonies a day.
      - bitwize 9y ago
        But then in the one case the cops have everything someone else said against you; in the other case the cops have everything someone else said against you and everything you incriminated yourself with by opening your damn yap. So clamming up is definitely a strategic option.
- thomasluce 9y ago
  The crime has already been committed. The question of safety is now resolved; you were not safe at that time, and likely exactly as safe now as you were before the crime. However, if you speak with the cops without council, you could endanger your freedom by saying the wrong thing to the wrong guy having a bad day. In the interest of safety, you have nothing to gain and everything to lose by speaking to the police without a lawyer.
- code_duck 9y ago
  One time I had a friend who was robbed in Philadelphia and beaten enough to be hospitalized. A detective came and talked to me, alone, with my parents in another state, with no attorney. He informed me that if my friend died, I'd be a 'prime suspect'! Apparently, based on nothing other than their lack of other information... Or he was trying to intimidate me in case i did know more. I wasn't even 18. Who knows... you do hear of cases where crimes are pinned on innocent people, seemingly because some DA would rather prosecute anybody than leave it 'unsolved'.
  - steveklabnik 9y ago
    I worked at a pizza chain in college; closing manager on the night shift. Due to some stuff I won't get into here, tons of "safety" stuff in the store didn't work (camera was fake, bell on the door broken, etc), and I ended up getting robbed at gunpoint one evening. I called the police, they interviewed me. Came back a few days later and did it again. At the time, what I remember feeling like was that they were trying to figure out if I made it up and kept the money rather than actually catching the person who had a gun to my head. I was pissed.
paulddraper 9y ago
I don't have anything to gain for holding a door open either. I know this is HN, but not all decisions in life are based on benefit to you.
- inspector-g 9y ago
  But you don't have anything substantial to lose by holding open said door. This is a poor analogy because the stakes are not even close to comparable.
  - AnimalMuppet 9y ago
    Sure I do. The person walking through the door could mug me, getting a free first punch at me because my hand is on the door. The question is, what are the odds? Most people walking through the door don't do that to me. But if the police come to your door, what are the odds that they're going to treat you unfairly? I suspect, higher than the odds that the person I hold the door for is going to punch me. Are the odds with the police unacceptably high? For me, no. (But then, first, I've never yet been treated unfairly by the police, whereas at least three times I've received better treatment than I objectively deserved. And second, I'm white and fairly conservative in appearance, so I'm probably going to get as much benefit of the doubt as anyone ever does.)
    - jancsika 9y ago
      > Sure I do. The person walking through the door could mug me, getting a free first punch at me because my hand is on the door. What are the highly likely penalties for an assailant attacking you in broad daylight like that, in a society under rule of law? Now, what are the penalties to the FBI treating you unfairly during a surprise visit? Further-- in the extremely unlikely event of getting punched in the face in broad daylight because you held the door open for somebody, what's it like to recover? Keep in mind that the public at large, law enforcement, and the court system would very likely all be on your side as you seek medical care, justice and remuneration. Same question for FBI treating you unfairly after entertain their surprise visit without counsel. What does a recovery from that look like, and who would you likely have on your side?
secabeen 9y ago
You are forgetting the situation wherein you are the victim of a crime.
alasdair_ 9y ago
This advice is too generic to be used in every situation. If I see a van drive up, a man come out and throw a child in the back and speed off, I'm damn well going to tell the police everything I saw immediately, without waiting on a lawyer.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  Perhaps more obviously, if you've been a victim of a crime—especially one you have reason to believe will likely be repeated or escalated without police involvement—while it might not be a bad idea to involve a lawyer in your law enforcement contacts if you have the means to do so immediately, there may be very good reason to report the crime to police without delay, even if that requires talking to them without an attorney. (And, yes, the basic risks of talking to police still apply. But there are, in this cases, risks of not doing so, as well.) OTOH, I think the advice is strongest in the case where the police are initiating contact, and you don't have a pre-existing and independent basis to think there is an interest in talking without delay that justifies the additional risk of doing so without an attorney.

derefr 9y ago

I guess, in the case of a crime committed in my neighbourhood, where I saw something, I see myself as having the safety of my neighbourhood to gain.

eriknstr 9y ago
And also, if someone was murdered a few blocks down and then you refuse to say anything and say that you want your lawyer, won't that just needlessly make them suspect you for the murder? I'm all for encryption and a right to privacy and so on but I mean when it's obvious they just want to solve a crime and they are looking for info from you as a witness, well I don't see any reason not to be helpful.
- gardnr 9y ago
  No, it would not give them reason to suspect you of the murder. You can learn more from a lawyer here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE
- lj3 9y ago
  > And also, if someone was murdered a few blocks down and then you refuse to say anything and say that you want your lawyer, won't that just needlessly make them suspect you for the murder? You watch too much TV. I know it's hard, but when talking about real life law enforcement, try to forget everything you've ever seen about it on TV. It's about as accurate as the hacking scenes in NCIS.
- Clubber 9y ago
  Saying something you would think is harmless might very well lead them to suspect you. It's not the police's job to decide your guilt or innocence, it's their job to collect evidence and find someone the state can prosecute. Even if you are innocent, it will cost you hundreds of thousand of dollars and being arrested and innocent goes on your record. The justice system in the US is completely broken. You should be very afraid.
- bitwize 9y ago
  As I understand it, I suppose it could make the cops suspicious, but "So-and-so refused to answer questions and asked to speak to a lawyer first" is legally inadmissible in court as evidence against you.
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    If the police are suspicious of you, it makes it more likely that they will be inclined to view information recieved from other sources in a light unfavorable to you, and devote resources to investigating you rather than others. Depending on how focussed that gets, you run into the "Three Felonies a Day" problem.
    - rootusrootus 9y ago
      To be fair, if you read up on the 'three felonies a day' book, you find that most of the examples given are fairly contrived. Some of them are things you should absolutely know are likely to be illegal, the rest are situations that require significant legal contortions to be plausible and are unlikely to survive scrutiny by a judge. Average Joe doesn't really go around committing three felonies a day.
    - bitwize 9y ago
      But then in the one case the cops have everything someone else said against you; in the other case the cops have everything someone else said against you and everything you incriminated yourself with by opening your damn yap. So clamming up is definitely a strategic option.
thomasluce 9y ago
The crime has already been committed. The question of safety is now resolved; you were not safe at that time, and likely exactly as safe now as you were before the crime. However, if you speak with the cops without council, you could endanger your freedom by saying the wrong thing to the wrong guy having a bad day. In the interest of safety, you have nothing to gain and everything to lose by speaking to the police without a lawyer.
code_duck 9y ago
One time I had a friend who was robbed in Philadelphia and beaten enough to be hospitalized. A detective came and talked to me, alone, with my parents in another state, with no attorney. He informed me that if my friend died, I'd be a 'prime suspect'! Apparently, based on nothing other than their lack of other information... Or he was trying to intimidate me in case i did know more. I wasn't even 18. Who knows... you do hear of cases where crimes are pinned on innocent people, seemingly because some DA would rather prosecute anybody than leave it 'unsolved'.
- steveklabnik 9y ago
  I worked at a pizza chain in college; closing manager on the night shift. Due to some stuff I won't get into here, tons of "safety" stuff in the store didn't work (camera was fake, bell on the door broken, etc), and I ended up getting robbed at gunpoint one evening. I called the police, they interviewed me. Came back a few days later and did it again. At the time, what I remember feeling like was that they were trying to figure out if I made it up and kept the money rather than actually catching the person who had a gun to my head. I was pissed.

paulddraper 9y ago

I don't have anything to gain for holding a door open either. I know this is HN, but not all decisions in life are based on benefit to you.

inspector-g 9y ago
But you don't have anything substantial to lose by holding open said door. This is a poor analogy because the stakes are not even close to comparable.
- AnimalMuppet 9y ago
  Sure I do. The person walking through the door could mug me, getting a free first punch at me because my hand is on the door. The question is, what are the odds? Most people walking through the door don't do that to me. But if the police come to your door, what are the odds that they're going to treat you unfairly? I suspect, higher than the odds that the person I hold the door for is going to punch me. Are the odds with the police unacceptably high? For me, no. (But then, first, I've never yet been treated unfairly by the police, whereas at least three times I've received better treatment than I objectively deserved. And second, I'm white and fairly conservative in appearance, so I'm probably going to get as much benefit of the doubt as anyone ever does.)
  - jancsika 9y ago
    > Sure I do. The person walking through the door could mug me, getting a free first punch at me because my hand is on the door. What are the highly likely penalties for an assailant attacking you in broad daylight like that, in a society under rule of law? Now, what are the penalties to the FBI treating you unfairly during a surprise visit? Further-- in the extremely unlikely event of getting punched in the face in broad daylight because you held the door open for somebody, what's it like to recover? Keep in mind that the public at large, law enforcement, and the court system would very likely all be on your side as you seek medical care, justice and remuneration. Same question for FBI treating you unfairly after entertain their surprise visit without counsel. What does a recovery from that look like, and who would you likely have on your side?

secabeen 9y ago

You are forgetting the situation wherein you are the victim of a crime.

alasdair_ 9y ago

This advice is too generic to be used in every situation. If I see a van drive up, a man come out and throw a child in the back and speed off, I'm damn well going to tell the police everything I saw immediately, without waiting on a lawyer.

dragonwriter 9y ago
Perhaps more obviously, if you've been a victim of a crime—especially one you have reason to believe will likely be repeated or escalated without police involvement—while it might not be a bad idea to involve a lawyer in your law enforcement contacts if you have the means to do so immediately, there may be very good reason to report the crime to police without delay, even if that requires talking to them without an attorney. (And, yes, the basic risks of talking to police still apply. But there are, in this cases, risks of not doing so, as well.) OTOH, I think the advice is strongest in the case where the police are initiating contact, and you don't have a pre-existing and independent basis to think there is an interest in talking without delay that justifies the additional risk of doing so without an attorney.