8 ms·

Ken White, a criminal defense attorney and former US prosecutor at Popehat.com, writes about these subjects, and has an entire series devoted to this sort of th

by xoa 10y ago

Ken White, a criminal defense attorney and former US prosecutor at Popehat.com, writes about these subjects, and has an entire series devoted to this sort of thing under the what-it-says-on-the-tin tag of Shut Up: https://www.popehat.com/tag/shut-up/ https://www.popehat.com/tag/shut-up/ His writing makes for accessible, knowledgeable and amusing posts on a very serious topic and are extremely well worth a read. But the summary version is pretty straight forward: there is no such thing as an out-of-the-blue innocent visit from Law Enforcement, ever. This is kind of common sense when you stop think about it: agents are not free and budget is not infinite. If they are actually devoting an actual warm body to talk to you, particularly a warm body to visit you, it is always, always potentially serious. It is not on a lark, they did not roll some dice and have your number come up for a community chat. They're talking to you for a reason and given their fundamental purpose that reason may be quite bad for you, whether you did anything wrong or not. The true super power of government is patience and grinding, relentless inertia. By the time they talk to you odds are high that they have already done their research, extensively. They have a legal theory and narrative already in mind. If the Feds are knocking it's time to get a lawyer, period, particularly if you're fully innocent.

derefr 10y ago
If the police are at your door, and, 1. you know a crime happened around you recently; 2. you saw/heard something; 3. you either feel some sense of moral responsibility in helping to catch the criminal, or you just feel unsafe in your home and want to feel safe again; then I don't see what's wrong with taking part in a conversation with a police officer that goes specifically along the lines of "we know you were at [place] at [time]" or "[crime] happened in your building", followed by "did you see or hear anyone or anything suspicious?" Sure, if the conversation goes anywhere else, lawyer up. But is there any risk in providing the same statement when the police come to you, that you'd have willingly provided by actively going down to the police station to give a witness statement? (Which is, after all, the majority of the interviews the police do. For every one person the police speak to under suspicion, they speak to 5+ other people—witnesses—to figure out who to suspect. This is exactly the "research" you mention above.)
- dsp1234 10y ago
  The advice still stands. You have nothing to gain from speaking to the police without an attorney, and everything to lose.
  - derefr 10y ago
    I guess, in the case of a crime committed in my neighbourhood, where I saw something, I see myself as having the safety of my neighbourhood to gain.
    - eriknstr 10y ago
      And also, if someone was murdered a few blocks down and then you refuse to say anything and say that you want your lawyer, won't that just needlessly make them suspect you for the murder? I'm all for encryption and a right to privacy and so on but I mean when it's obvious they just want to solve a crime and they are looking for info from you as a witness, well I don't see any reason not to be helpful.
      - gardnr 10y ago
        No, it would not give them reason to suspect you of the murder. You can learn more from a lawyer here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE
      - lj3 10y ago
        > And also, if someone was murdered a few blocks down and then you refuse to say anything and say that you want your lawyer, won't that just needlessly make them suspect you for the murder? You watch too much TV. I know it's hard, but when talking about real life law enforcement, try to forget everything you've ever seen about it on TV. It's about as accurate as the hacking scenes in NCIS.
      - Clubber 10y ago
        Saying something you would think is harmless might very well lead them to suspect you. It's not the police's job to decide your guilt or innocence, it's their job to collect evidence and find someone the state can prosecute. Even if you are innocent, it will cost you hundreds of thousand of dollars and being arrested and innocent goes on your record. The justice system in the US is completely broken. You should be very afraid.
PhasmaFelis 10y ago
A couple of cops showed up asking for my roommate once. I had no reason to think that he'd done anything questionable, but my first instinct was still to hedge and find out what they wanted before admitting he was in. Turned out they were returning his lost wallet. I was so relieved that I hollered for him immediately, and all was well. In retrospect, I probably still should have hedged, said "let me see if he's in" and got his okay first. Even if they do mean well, it costs nothing to be cautious.
- monocasa 10y ago
  > In retrospect, I probably still should have hedged, said "let me see if he's in" and got his okay first. Even if they do mean well, it costs nothing to be cautious. Yeah, I wouldn't put it past a cop to lie to you about returning his wallet.
- dsfyu404ed 10y ago
  If you were my roommate you'd get a talking to about answering the door at all. That's what the peephole is for.
  - PhasmaFelis 10y ago
    This was an apartment building with a locked, windowed outer door and a bellbox. If someone knocked on my front door I could use the peephole, but if someone rang the bell you had to step out into the hall, and then they could see you as well as you could see them.
  - PhasmaFelis 10y ago
    This was an apartment building with a locked, windowed outer door. If someone knocked on my front door I could use the peephole, but if someone rang the outside bell you had to step out into the hall, and then they could see you as well as you could see them.
ctznmastermind 10y ago
When two FBI came looking for me, they went to my mother's old employer that she had left 6 years prior. Someone at the school called her and she called me. I called the agents and they asked if I could meet them at their office. I agreed. I had invested in a project with an out of state person. He was referred to me by a close friend. When I stopped sending money, the person disappeared. This person had a reputable background, a family and lived in an expensive house. But he'd call me crying begging for money, claiming other investors were closing soon. I being young and foolish, contacted his partners and my friend. I could had handled it better but I knew I hadn't broken any laws. I did tell him I'd tell everyone he knew that he was a con-artist. The FBI agents were comically dense. One was dressed in tactical gear. They claimed they had an email I sent where I threatened the investor's young children. I strongly denied this and then asked to see it. They refused to show me and responded, "We are the Federal Bureau of Investigation not the Federal Bureau of Information". Then they asked me if I was a member of a foreign intelligence service but mispronounced the name. They told me not to contact the person and I should consider a lawsuit. Before I met with them, I did ask a US based intel person what he thought. He said FBI agents are sometimes employed by private interests and that I should ask for identification and verify it with the local branch. I'm not sure if this is actually true but it certainly wasn't in my case.
- jacquesm 10y ago
  That does not sound like FBI to me but rather like two posers.
- DigitalJack 10y ago
  Comically dense can be a useful ploy. I had it pulled on me and only long afterward did I learn that the person was not remotely stupid. I felt stupid, and irritated, afterwards.
  - alasdair_ 10y ago
    Mind elaborating without revealing personal info? This stuff is pretty interesting..
  - 10y ago
fjdlwlv 10y ago
You strangely discount the quite reasonable possibility that something serious happened and you have important information about it but are not a suspect. Now, law enforcement can certainly abuse their power, but there is nothing axiomatically entailed that makes a critical witness into a suspect.
- MaxfordAndSons 10y ago
  True that it's a possibility, but FWIW I think if they're actually just seeking relevant information from a third party who they believe to be completely innocent, they're much likelier to call than conduct an in person interview. And in either case, you are still exposed to legal risk from the interaction.
- vkou 10y ago
  No, but if they don't have any better leads, they may feel that they want to start investigating the person who knows the most about the crime.

by xoa 10y ago

derefr 10y ago

If the police are at your door, and, 1. you know a crime happened around you recently; 2. you saw/heard something; 3. you either feel some sense of moral responsibility in helping to catch the criminal, or you just feel unsafe in your home and want to feel safe again; then I don't see what's wrong with taking part in a conversation with a police officer that goes specifically along the lines of "we know you were at [place] at [time]" or "[crime] happened in your building", followed by "did you see or hear anyone or anything suspicious?" Sure, if the conversation goes anywhere else, lawyer up. But is there any risk in providing the same statement when the police come to you, that you'd have willingly provided by actively going down to the police station to give a witness statement? (Which is, after all, the majority of the interviews the police do. For every one person the police speak to under suspicion, they speak to 5+ other people—witnesses—to figure out who to suspect. This is exactly the "research" you mention above.)

dsp1234 10y ago
The advice still stands. You have nothing to gain from speaking to the police without an attorney, and everything to lose.
- derefr 10y ago
  I guess, in the case of a crime committed in my neighbourhood, where I saw something, I see myself as having the safety of my neighbourhood to gain.
  - eriknstr 10y ago
    And also, if someone was murdered a few blocks down and then you refuse to say anything and say that you want your lawyer, won't that just needlessly make them suspect you for the murder? I'm all for encryption and a right to privacy and so on but I mean when it's obvious they just want to solve a crime and they are looking for info from you as a witness, well I don't see any reason not to be helpful.
    - gardnr 10y ago
      No, it would not give them reason to suspect you of the murder. You can learn more from a lawyer here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE
    - lj3 10y ago
      > And also, if someone was murdered a few blocks down and then you refuse to say anything and say that you want your lawyer, won't that just needlessly make them suspect you for the murder? You watch too much TV. I know it's hard, but when talking about real life law enforcement, try to forget everything you've ever seen about it on TV. It's about as accurate as the hacking scenes in NCIS.
    - Clubber 10y ago
      Saying something you would think is harmless might very well lead them to suspect you. It's not the police's job to decide your guilt or innocence, it's their job to collect evidence and find someone the state can prosecute. Even if you are innocent, it will cost you hundreds of thousand of dollars and being arrested and innocent goes on your record. The justice system in the US is completely broken. You should be very afraid.

PhasmaFelis 10y ago

A couple of cops showed up asking for my roommate once. I had no reason to think that he'd done anything questionable, but my first instinct was still to hedge and find out what they wanted before admitting he was in. Turned out they were returning his lost wallet. I was so relieved that I hollered for him immediately, and all was well. In retrospect, I probably still should have hedged, said "let me see if he's in" and got his okay first. Even if they do mean well, it costs nothing to be cautious.

monocasa 10y ago
> In retrospect, I probably still should have hedged, said "let me see if he's in" and got his okay first. Even if they do mean well, it costs nothing to be cautious. Yeah, I wouldn't put it past a cop to lie to you about returning his wallet.
dsfyu404ed 10y ago
If you were my roommate you'd get a talking to about answering the door at all. That's what the peephole is for.
- PhasmaFelis 10y ago
  This was an apartment building with a locked, windowed outer door and a bellbox. If someone knocked on my front door I could use the peephole, but if someone rang the bell you had to step out into the hall, and then they could see you as well as you could see them.
- PhasmaFelis 10y ago
  This was an apartment building with a locked, windowed outer door. If someone knocked on my front door I could use the peephole, but if someone rang the outside bell you had to step out into the hall, and then they could see you as well as you could see them.

ctznmastermind 10y ago

When two FBI came looking for me, they went to my mother's old employer that she had left 6 years prior. Someone at the school called her and she called me. I called the agents and they asked if I could meet them at their office. I agreed. I had invested in a project with an out of state person. He was referred to me by a close friend. When I stopped sending money, the person disappeared. This person had a reputable background, a family and lived in an expensive house. But he'd call me crying begging for money, claiming other investors were closing soon. I being young and foolish, contacted his partners and my friend. I could had handled it better but I knew I hadn't broken any laws. I did tell him I'd tell everyone he knew that he was a con-artist. The FBI agents were comically dense. One was dressed in tactical gear. They claimed they had an email I sent where I threatened the investor's young children. I strongly denied this and then asked to see it. They refused to show me and responded, "We are the Federal Bureau of Investigation not the Federal Bureau of Information". Then they asked me if I was a member of a foreign intelligence service but mispronounced the name. They told me not to contact the person and I should consider a lawsuit. Before I met with them, I did ask a US based intel person what he thought. He said FBI agents are sometimes employed by private interests and that I should ask for identification and verify it with the local branch. I'm not sure if this is actually true but it certainly wasn't in my case.

jacquesm 10y ago
That does not sound like FBI to me but rather like two posers.
DigitalJack 10y ago
Comically dense can be a useful ploy. I had it pulled on me and only long afterward did I learn that the person was not remotely stupid. I felt stupid, and irritated, afterwards.
- alasdair_ 10y ago
  Mind elaborating without revealing personal info? This stuff is pretty interesting..
- 10y ago

fjdlwlv 10y ago

You strangely discount the quite reasonable possibility that something serious happened and you have important information about it but are not a suspect. Now, law enforcement can certainly abuse their power, but there is nothing axiomatically entailed that makes a critical witness into a suspect.

MaxfordAndSons 10y ago
True that it's a possibility, but FWIW I think if they're actually just seeking relevant information from a third party who they believe to be completely innocent, they're much likelier to call than conduct an in person interview. And in either case, you are still exposed to legal risk from the interaction.
vkou 10y ago
No, but if they don't have any better leads, they may feel that they want to start investigating the person who knows the most about the crime.