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It's far beyond "toddlers in rural China commonly poop in the street". In downtown Shanghai I got to watch a mother walk out of her business holding her child,

It's far beyond "toddlers in rural China commonly poop in the street". In downtown Shanghai I got to watch a mother walk out of her business holding her child, have the child crap on the sidewalk (while being held in the mothers' arms), and then brought back inside. This was not a baby. The kid looked about 3-4 years old. This goes on in subway stations as well. The parent has the kid sit on the edge of a garbage can and crap into it. If you go you'll see the children commonly wear these lower garments with the whole groin area open. It's so the child can squat and pee or poo anywhere without needing adult attention. The child is taken to public parts in the city and around downtown like this. Chinese public conscientiousness is far below anything you can imagine until you experience it.

politiyvr 9y ago
Meanwhile, over in Richmond (a suburb of Vancouver, Canada where the census shows approx 50% of residents are of Chinese origin): http://www.vancitybuzz.com/2013/08/meanwhile-in-richmond/ http://www.vancitybuzz.com/2013/08/meanwhile-in-richmond/ http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/the-hot-button/the-boy-that-peed-in-a-garbage-can-at-a-bc-mall-why-did-it-happen/article14048692/ http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/the-hot-button/the-boy-t... http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/boy-peeing-in-b-c-mall-trash-bin-photo-sparks-online-debate-1.1337883 http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/boy-peeing-in... http://www.straight.com/news/417596/culture-clash-over-kid-peeing-garbage-can-richmond-shopping-mall http://www.straight.com/news/417596/culture-clash-over-kid-p...
Laforet 9y ago
This arises from a mixture of two things: A strong agrarian tradition where no piece of human waste is going to be left festering in the sun - somebody is going to pick it up and make good use of it. In all seriousness this has been the case until chemical fertilisers became cheap enough, before then every town had organised dung-gatherer guilds who organised daily cleanup of faeces in the street and sold the product to the farmers in rural areas. Even urine-soaked earth dug up in alleys can be sold as a source of nitrates. A second and more ingrained reason is that young children are regarded to only have the intelligence of animals because you cannot reason with them like how pre-Christianity Romans thought, thus they are to be treated with the same level of respect that animals deserve: if kids want to relieve themselves, then it might as well happen on the spot because self-control is beyond their facilities. Shanghai is also unusual among major Chinese cities that many households in the old town are not serviced by sewage lines. Instead everybody bought their nightly waste to public septic tanks and pour it down a chute before a vacumm truck takes the load away every few weeks. Thus the residents are typically less fazed at the sight of faecal matter than their compatriots.
- geokon 9y ago
  Living in China I've noticed that the attitude towards the very young does seem really similar to the attitude they have towards their pets. It's always been so baffling. Do you have any other info on the second point?
  - Laforet 9y ago
    It's hard to find a book or non-paywalled journal article on top of my head, but the thesis below touches on the basic premise of the Chinese view on children. http://dc.cod.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1007&context=nehscholarship http://dc.cod.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1007&context=n... In short, Confucian scholars view personhood not as something gifted at conception or birth, but a learned virtue that develops progressively as each person lives through different stages of their lives. Thus rearing young children is not unlike taming a wild animal and a lot of nasty things kids do can be forgiven on the basis that they have not learned the proper way to act yet. The ugly side of this thinking is that this naturally restricts youth rights since they are saw as an extension of the will of their parents; indeed one can argue that children are never fully independent until the death of their parents absolves them of these control and responsibilities. On the other hand, Confucianism has always been ambivalent if not indifferent to topics very touchy in the Judeo-Christian tradition such as abortion and infanticide, because the victims have not had a chance to develop their personhood yet, and thus these acts are sometimes considered deplorable but never compared to murder.
    - geokon 9y ago
      That was a very very interesting read. If you have any other recommendations in the same vein, please let me know (wouldn't mind buying a book)
- lacampbell 9y ago
  I'm not sure I buy the first two explanations. Taiwan is culturally Chinese, but if someone takes a crap on the street it'd be a small news story. Usually it's blamed on mainland tourists. I'd say it's more to do with development than anything else.

politiyvr 9y ago

Meanwhile, over in Richmond (a suburb of Vancouver, Canada where the census shows approx 50% of residents are of Chinese origin): http://www.vancitybuzz.com/2013/08/meanwhile-in-richmond/ http://www.vancitybuzz.com/2013/08/meanwhile-in-richmond/ http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/the-hot-button/the-boy-that-peed-in-a-garbage-can-at-a-bc-mall-why-did-it-happen/article14048692/ http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/the-hot-button/the-boy-t... http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/boy-peeing-in-b-c-mall-trash-bin-photo-sparks-online-debate-1.1337883 http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/boy-peeing-in... http://www.straight.com/news/417596/culture-clash-over-kid-peeing-garbage-can-richmond-shopping-mall http://www.straight.com/news/417596/culture-clash-over-kid-p...

Laforet 9y ago

This arises from a mixture of two things: A strong agrarian tradition where no piece of human waste is going to be left festering in the sun - somebody is going to pick it up and make good use of it. In all seriousness this has been the case until chemical fertilisers became cheap enough, before then every town had organised dung-gatherer guilds who organised daily cleanup of faeces in the street and sold the product to the farmers in rural areas. Even urine-soaked earth dug up in alleys can be sold as a source of nitrates. A second and more ingrained reason is that young children are regarded to only have the intelligence of animals because you cannot reason with them like how pre-Christianity Romans thought, thus they are to be treated with the same level of respect that animals deserve: if kids want to relieve themselves, then it might as well happen on the spot because self-control is beyond their facilities. Shanghai is also unusual among major Chinese cities that many households in the old town are not serviced by sewage lines. Instead everybody bought their nightly waste to public septic tanks and pour it down a chute before a vacumm truck takes the load away every few weeks. Thus the residents are typically less fazed at the sight of faecal matter than their compatriots.

geokon 9y ago
Living in China I've noticed that the attitude towards the very young does seem really similar to the attitude they have towards their pets. It's always been so baffling. Do you have any other info on the second point?
- Laforet 9y ago
  It's hard to find a book or non-paywalled journal article on top of my head, but the thesis below touches on the basic premise of the Chinese view on children. http://dc.cod.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1007&context=nehscholarship http://dc.cod.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1007&context=n... In short, Confucian scholars view personhood not as something gifted at conception or birth, but a learned virtue that develops progressively as each person lives through different stages of their lives. Thus rearing young children is not unlike taming a wild animal and a lot of nasty things kids do can be forgiven on the basis that they have not learned the proper way to act yet. The ugly side of this thinking is that this naturally restricts youth rights since they are saw as an extension of the will of their parents; indeed one can argue that children are never fully independent until the death of their parents absolves them of these control and responsibilities. On the other hand, Confucianism has always been ambivalent if not indifferent to topics very touchy in the Judeo-Christian tradition such as abortion and infanticide, because the victims have not had a chance to develop their personhood yet, and thus these acts are sometimes considered deplorable but never compared to murder.
  - geokon 9y ago
    That was a very very interesting read. If you have any other recommendations in the same vein, please let me know (wouldn't mind buying a book)
lacampbell 9y ago
I'm not sure I buy the first two explanations. Taiwan is culturally Chinese, but if someone takes a crap on the street it'd be a small news story. Usually it's blamed on mainland tourists. I'd say it's more to do with development than anything else.