5 ms·

You are handwaving away huge issues here. As Bill Gates said in the same interview I quoted from before: >"...It’s kind of ironic: Germany, by installing so m

by opo 10y ago

You are handwaving away huge issues here. As Bill Gates said in the same interview I quoted from before: >"...It’s kind of ironic: Germany, by installing so much rooftop solar, has it that both their coal plants and their rooftop solar are available in the summer, and the price of power during the day actually goes negative—they pay people to take it. Then at night the only source is the coal, and because the energy companies have to recover their capital costs, they either raise the price because they’re not getting any return for the day, or they slowly go bankrupt. There are many people working on storage—batteries are a form of storage, and there’s a few others, like compressed air, hot metals. But it’s not at all clear that we will get grid-scale economic storage. We’re more than a factor of 10 away from the economics to get that."

Retric 10y ago
Coal and nuclear are huge steam engines. They cool down when you turn them off which causes thermal stress and you then need to heat them up again before they can generate power. Thus Germany's problem is they have coal power plants in the first place. Gas turbines also have thermal stress, but they are designed for this and they loose vastly less power when you turn them off. With enough of them you can have zero storage and zero problems. Because storage is simply one solution to production / demand mismatch not the only one. Now yes, peaking power costs more but energy costing more at night is rational behavior and without subsidies you will minimize overall costs.
- opo 10y ago
  On the plus side, the CO2 from burning natural gas is less than coal and it doesn't emit mercury or the other particulates and doesn't have a waste issue like coal does. Unfortunately for those who care about climate change, (and if you don't, you should) there are inevitable methane releases from fracking and from distribution of natural gas and those are now known to be much worse than previously thought: >...Back in August, a NOAA-led study measured a stunning 6% to 12% methane leakage over one of the country’s largest gas fields — which would gut the climate benefits of switching from coal to gas. We’ve known for a long time that methane is a far more potent greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide (CO2), which is released when any hydrocarbon, like natural gas, is burned. But the IPCC’s latest report, released Monday (big PDF here), reports that methane is 34 times stronger a heat-trapping gas than CO2 over a 100-year time scale, so its global-warming potential (GWP) is 34. That is a nearly 40% increase from the IPCC’s previous estimate of 25. ...The IPCC reports that, over a 20-year time frame, methane has a global warming potential of 86 compared to CO2, up from its previous estimate of 72. Given that we are approaching real, irreversible tipping points in the climate system, climate studies should, at the very least, include analyses that use this 20-year time horizon. Finally, it bears repeating that natural gas from even the best fracked wells is still a climate-destroying fossil fuel. If we are to avoid catastrophic warming, our natural gas consumption has to peak sometime in the next 10 to 15 years, according to studies by both the Center for American Progress and the Union of Concerned Scientists. https://thinkprogress.org/more-bad-news-for-fracking-ipcc-warns-methane-traps-much-more-heat-than-we-thought-9c2badf392df https://thinkprogress.org/more-bad-news-for-fracking-ipcc-wa... As we use more and more natural gas, we can expect more and more methane disasters like the leak from Aliso Canyon in CA which was the largest leak in US history. This released over 100,000 tons of methane into the atmosphere and required 11,000 residents to be evacuated. http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-35659947 http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-35659947
  - Retric 10y ago
    100,000 tons of methane with a half life of less than 10 years. The math is complex and 1 ton of methane becomes more than one ton of CO2, but the actual long term impact is fairly minimal vs the savings from not using Coal. Remember that's ~100,000 tons / ~10,000,000,000 tons = 1/100,000 so yea methane is bad, but in this context it's 0.001% so it's still a rounding error even if it's 100 times that bad. Anyway, I agree it's not without costs. But, if we got to the point where peaking power from gas makes up ~10% of total electricity supply and the rest of that is renewable power then we will have made massive progress. In other words don't let perfection stand in the way of progress.
    - opo 10y ago
      >100,000 tons of methane with a half life of less than 10 years. The math is complex and 1 ton of methane becomes more than one ton of CO2, You are downplaying the impact of methane. As I quoted in the last post, the IPCC estimate is that over 100 years a given amount of methane is 34 times more potent as a heat-trapping gas compared to CO2. Over a 20 year period (which is probably more relevant considering where we are in climate change) methane is 86 times more potent. >...but the actual long term impact is fairly minimal vs the savings from not using Coal. That's the problem - there is enough methane being released by our new reliance on natural gas there is concern that we may be having just as much of an impact on climate change as if we went and burned coal. >...Remember that's ~100,000 tons / ~10,000,000,000 tons = 1/100,000 so yea methane is bad, but in this context it's 0.001% so it's still a rounding error even if it's 100 times that bad. The problem is that EVERY natural gas well, storage facility and pipeline leaks methane. This was just the largest one. As I quoted in the last post, "...Back in August, a NOAA-led study measured a stunning 6% to 12% methane leakage over one of the country’s largest gas fields — which would gut the climate benefits of switching from coal to gas." >... But, if we got to the point where peaking power from gas makes up ~10% of total electricity supply and the rest of that is renewable power then we will have made massive progress. Yea no kidding - 90% power from intermittent sources would be pretty remarkable. The problem is that 90% power from intermittent sources won't be possible unless there are major advances in grid storage technologies. In terms of having to use natural gas, nuclear power plants in France and in Germany operate in load-following mode, so there is no reason this can't be done elsewhere. Minimizing our use of natural gas when when you consider the climate changing negative externalities of natural gas, would be a good thing.
WalterBright 10y ago
Nobody ever mentions varying the price of electricity to reduce demand when the sun isn't shining. We need to get past the assumption that electricity prices should be fixed. This won't solve the baseload problem, but it will reduce it.
- Retric 10y ago
  Electric prices have never been fixed at scale. It's really only small scale consumers that get a fixed but often higher rate. See Enron for example. Changing when energy is cheap does not break the model.
  - WalterBright 10y ago
    My electric rates have been fixed rates 24/7 for decades.
    - Retric 10y ago
      Are you using KW, MW, or GW of power? So yea, residential customers get a fixed rate but that's because there is no point in demand based pricing. They simply charge you enough that it makes little difference what time of day you use slightly more power. In the future the same is likely to be true.
      - WalterBright 10y ago
        My own usage is inconsequential, but not the aggregate of all the consumers.
ZeroGravitas 10y ago
Bill Gates is very much part of the problem. Having fossil fuel plants that only operate when needed, but get paid more per kWh than they do now when they run all the time (since as well as fuel costs they have up front construction to cover) is not even close to being a problem. It is in fact part of the solution. What is he doing complaining about this? Negative prices are also not the big drama he makes them out to be. Sad that he's got a reputation as some kind of genius and he's scared of negative numbers as if it's some kind of witchcraft to have too much of something and use pricing and markets to decide which providers should scale back. Translating for those scared of negative prices: someone wants to keep providing power for some reason (maybe their setup doesn't like rapid changes in output, which would cost them money in repairs), they want to pay you $X to shut down your system instead. Do a calculation and figure out if shutting down your system is cheaper than that, if so, take the money. Market forces at work! The inflexible system don't make as much money, and the flexible systems gain it. Or, someone with flexibility in when they need electricity says "I'll agree to heat my water tanks at the point that helps the grid most, how much will you pay me for doing that? The amount we'll pay you is the negative price, except not negative anymore".

by opo 10y ago

Retric 10y ago

Coal and nuclear are huge steam engines. They cool down when you turn them off which causes thermal stress and you then need to heat them up again before they can generate power. Thus Germany's problem is they have coal power plants in the first place. Gas turbines also have thermal stress, but they are designed for this and they loose vastly less power when you turn them off. With enough of them you can have zero storage and zero problems. Because storage is simply one solution to production / demand mismatch not the only one. Now yes, peaking power costs more but energy costing more at night is rational behavior and without subsidies you will minimize overall costs.

opo 10y ago
On the plus side, the CO2 from burning natural gas is less than coal and it doesn't emit mercury or the other particulates and doesn't have a waste issue like coal does. Unfortunately for those who care about climate change, (and if you don't, you should) there are inevitable methane releases from fracking and from distribution of natural gas and those are now known to be much worse than previously thought: >...Back in August, a NOAA-led study measured a stunning 6% to 12% methane leakage over one of the country’s largest gas fields — which would gut the climate benefits of switching from coal to gas. We’ve known for a long time that methane is a far more potent greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide (CO2), which is released when any hydrocarbon, like natural gas, is burned. But the IPCC’s latest report, released Monday (big PDF here), reports that methane is 34 times stronger a heat-trapping gas than CO2 over a 100-year time scale, so its global-warming potential (GWP) is 34. That is a nearly 40% increase from the IPCC’s previous estimate of 25. ...The IPCC reports that, over a 20-year time frame, methane has a global warming potential of 86 compared to CO2, up from its previous estimate of 72. Given that we are approaching real, irreversible tipping points in the climate system, climate studies should, at the very least, include analyses that use this 20-year time horizon. Finally, it bears repeating that natural gas from even the best fracked wells is still a climate-destroying fossil fuel. If we are to avoid catastrophic warming, our natural gas consumption has to peak sometime in the next 10 to 15 years, according to studies by both the Center for American Progress and the Union of Concerned Scientists. https://thinkprogress.org/more-bad-news-for-fracking-ipcc-warns-methane-traps-much-more-heat-than-we-thought-9c2badf392df https://thinkprogress.org/more-bad-news-for-fracking-ipcc-wa... As we use more and more natural gas, we can expect more and more methane disasters like the leak from Aliso Canyon in CA which was the largest leak in US history. This released over 100,000 tons of methane into the atmosphere and required 11,000 residents to be evacuated. http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-35659947 http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-35659947
- Retric 10y ago
  100,000 tons of methane with a half life of less than 10 years. The math is complex and 1 ton of methane becomes more than one ton of CO2, but the actual long term impact is fairly minimal vs the savings from not using Coal. Remember that's ~100,000 tons / ~10,000,000,000 tons = 1/100,000 so yea methane is bad, but in this context it's 0.001% so it's still a rounding error even if it's 100 times that bad. Anyway, I agree it's not without costs. But, if we got to the point where peaking power from gas makes up ~10% of total electricity supply and the rest of that is renewable power then we will have made massive progress. In other words don't let perfection stand in the way of progress.
  - opo 10y ago
    >100,000 tons of methane with a half life of less than 10 years. The math is complex and 1 ton of methane becomes more than one ton of CO2, You are downplaying the impact of methane. As I quoted in the last post, the IPCC estimate is that over 100 years a given amount of methane is 34 times more potent as a heat-trapping gas compared to CO2. Over a 20 year period (which is probably more relevant considering where we are in climate change) methane is 86 times more potent. >...but the actual long term impact is fairly minimal vs the savings from not using Coal. That's the problem - there is enough methane being released by our new reliance on natural gas there is concern that we may be having just as much of an impact on climate change as if we went and burned coal. >...Remember that's ~100,000 tons / ~10,000,000,000 tons = 1/100,000 so yea methane is bad, but in this context it's 0.001% so it's still a rounding error even if it's 100 times that bad. The problem is that EVERY natural gas well, storage facility and pipeline leaks methane. This was just the largest one. As I quoted in the last post, "...Back in August, a NOAA-led study measured a stunning 6% to 12% methane leakage over one of the country’s largest gas fields — which would gut the climate benefits of switching from coal to gas." >... But, if we got to the point where peaking power from gas makes up ~10% of total electricity supply and the rest of that is renewable power then we will have made massive progress. Yea no kidding - 90% power from intermittent sources would be pretty remarkable. The problem is that 90% power from intermittent sources won't be possible unless there are major advances in grid storage technologies. In terms of having to use natural gas, nuclear power plants in France and in Germany operate in load-following mode, so there is no reason this can't be done elsewhere. Minimizing our use of natural gas when when you consider the climate changing negative externalities of natural gas, would be a good thing.

WalterBright 10y ago

Nobody ever mentions varying the price of electricity to reduce demand when the sun isn't shining. We need to get past the assumption that electricity prices should be fixed. This won't solve the baseload problem, but it will reduce it.

Retric 10y ago
Electric prices have never been fixed at scale. It's really only small scale consumers that get a fixed but often higher rate. See Enron for example. Changing when energy is cheap does not break the model.
- WalterBright 10y ago
  My electric rates have been fixed rates 24/7 for decades.
  - Retric 10y ago
    Are you using KW, MW, or GW of power? So yea, residential customers get a fixed rate but that's because there is no point in demand based pricing. They simply charge you enough that it makes little difference what time of day you use slightly more power. In the future the same is likely to be true.
    - WalterBright 10y ago
      My own usage is inconsequential, but not the aggregate of all the consumers.

ZeroGravitas 10y ago

Bill Gates is very much part of the problem. Having fossil fuel plants that only operate when needed, but get paid more per kWh than they do now when they run all the time (since as well as fuel costs they have up front construction to cover) is not even close to being a problem. It is in fact part of the solution. What is he doing complaining about this? Negative prices are also not the big drama he makes them out to be. Sad that he's got a reputation as some kind of genius and he's scared of negative numbers as if it's some kind of witchcraft to have too much of something and use pricing and markets to decide which providers should scale back. Translating for those scared of negative prices: someone wants to keep providing power for some reason (maybe their setup doesn't like rapid changes in output, which would cost them money in repairs), they want to pay you $X to shut down your system instead. Do a calculation and figure out if shutting down your system is cheaper than that, if so, take the money. Market forces at work! The inflexible system don't make as much money, and the flexible systems gain it. Or, someone with flexibility in when they need electricity says "I'll agree to heat my water tanks at the point that helps the grid most, how much will you pay me for doing that? The amount we'll pay you is the negative price, except not negative anymore".