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No one I know is opposed to renewable energy, but advocates really do everybody a disservice when they try to argue that an intermittent power source without st

by opo 10y ago

No one I know is opposed to renewable energy, but advocates really do everybody a disservice when they try to argue that an intermittent power source without storage is a reasonable replacement for base load power. As Bill Gates said in an interview "…They have this statement that the cost of solar photovoltaic is the same as hydrocarbon’s. And that’s one of those misleadingly meaningless statements. What they mean is that at noon in Arizona, the cost of that kilowatt-hour is the same as a hydrocarbon kilowatt-hour. But it doesn’t come at night, it doesn’t come after the sun hasn’t shone, so the fact that in that one moment you reach parity, so what? The reading public, when they see things like that, they underestimate how hard this thing is. So false solutions like divestment or “Oh, it’s easy to do” hurt our ability to fix the problems. Distinguishing a real solution from a false solution is actually very complicated." https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/11/we-need-an-energy-miracle/407881/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/11/we-need... (Gates is investing in 4th gen nuclear and energy storage companies so he is putting his money where his mouth is.)

Retric 10y ago
The term Baseload power is not a goal, it's a Problem with some types of power not being flexible. In that context, soar is closer to Baseload power than peaking power plants. Yes, it currently better matches demand than Baseload power, but as you ramp it up the supply / demand miss mach will simply shift around the day. Turning on some peaking power plants at night vs the day is not a significant issue. Further, the solution is excess capacity not long term storage.
- opo 10y ago
  You are handwaving away huge issues here. As Bill Gates said in the same interview I quoted from before: >"...It’s kind of ironic: Germany, by installing so much rooftop solar, has it that both their coal plants and their rooftop solar are available in the summer, and the price of power during the day actually goes negative—they pay people to take it. Then at night the only source is the coal, and because the energy companies have to recover their capital costs, they either raise the price because they’re not getting any return for the day, or they slowly go bankrupt. There are many people working on storage—batteries are a form of storage, and there’s a few others, like compressed air, hot metals. But it’s not at all clear that we will get grid-scale economic storage. We’re more than a factor of 10 away from the economics to get that."
  - Retric 10y ago
    Coal and nuclear are huge steam engines. They cool down when you turn them off which causes thermal stress and you then need to heat them up again before they can generate power. Thus Germany's problem is they have coal power plants in the first place. Gas turbines also have thermal stress, but they are designed for this and they loose vastly less power when you turn them off. With enough of them you can have zero storage and zero problems. Because storage is simply one solution to production / demand mismatch not the only one. Now yes, peaking power costs more but energy costing more at night is rational behavior and without subsidies you will minimize overall costs.
    - opo 10y ago
      On the plus side, the CO2 from burning natural gas is less than coal and it doesn't emit mercury or the other particulates and doesn't have a waste issue like coal does. Unfortunately for those who care about climate change, (and if you don't, you should) there are inevitable methane releases from fracking and from distribution of natural gas and those are now known to be much worse than previously thought: >...Back in August, a NOAA-led study measured a stunning 6% to 12% methane leakage over one of the country’s largest gas fields — which would gut the climate benefits of switching from coal to gas. We’ve known for a long time that methane is a far more potent greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide (CO2), which is released when any hydrocarbon, like natural gas, is burned. But the IPCC’s latest report, released Monday (big PDF here), reports that methane is 34 times stronger a heat-trapping gas than CO2 over a 100-year time scale, so its global-warming potential (GWP) is 34. That is a nearly 40% increase from the IPCC’s previous estimate of 25. ...The IPCC reports that, over a 20-year time frame, methane has a global warming potential of 86 compared to CO2, up from its previous estimate of 72. Given that we are approaching real, irreversible tipping points in the climate system, climate studies should, at the very least, include analyses that use this 20-year time horizon. Finally, it bears repeating that natural gas from even the best fracked wells is still a climate-destroying fossil fuel. If we are to avoid catastrophic warming, our natural gas consumption has to peak sometime in the next 10 to 15 years, according to studies by both the Center for American Progress and the Union of Concerned Scientists. https://thinkprogress.org/more-bad-news-for-fracking-ipcc-warns-methane-traps-much-more-heat-than-we-thought-9c2badf392df https://thinkprogress.org/more-bad-news-for-fracking-ipcc-wa... As we use more and more natural gas, we can expect more and more methane disasters like the leak from Aliso Canyon in CA which was the largest leak in US history. This released over 100,000 tons of methane into the atmosphere and required 11,000 residents to be evacuated. http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-35659947 http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-35659947

by opo 10y ago

Retric 10y ago

The term Baseload power is not a goal, it's a Problem with some types of power not being flexible. In that context, soar is closer to Baseload power than peaking power plants. Yes, it currently better matches demand than Baseload power, but as you ramp it up the supply / demand miss mach will simply shift around the day. Turning on some peaking power plants at night vs the day is not a significant issue. Further, the solution is excess capacity not long term storage.

opo 10y ago
You are handwaving away huge issues here. As Bill Gates said in the same interview I quoted from before: >"...It’s kind of ironic: Germany, by installing so much rooftop solar, has it that both their coal plants and their rooftop solar are available in the summer, and the price of power during the day actually goes negative—they pay people to take it. Then at night the only source is the coal, and because the energy companies have to recover their capital costs, they either raise the price because they’re not getting any return for the day, or they slowly go bankrupt. There are many people working on storage—batteries are a form of storage, and there’s a few others, like compressed air, hot metals. But it’s not at all clear that we will get grid-scale economic storage. We’re more than a factor of 10 away from the economics to get that."
- Retric 10y ago
  Coal and nuclear are huge steam engines. They cool down when you turn them off which causes thermal stress and you then need to heat them up again before they can generate power. Thus Germany's problem is they have coal power plants in the first place. Gas turbines also have thermal stress, but they are designed for this and they loose vastly less power when you turn them off. With enough of them you can have zero storage and zero problems. Because storage is simply one solution to production / demand mismatch not the only one. Now yes, peaking power costs more but energy costing more at night is rational behavior and without subsidies you will minimize overall costs.
  - opo 10y ago
    On the plus side, the CO2 from burning natural gas is less than coal and it doesn't emit mercury or the other particulates and doesn't have a waste issue like coal does. Unfortunately for those who care about climate change, (and if you don't, you should) there are inevitable methane releases from fracking and from distribution of natural gas and those are now known to be much worse than previously thought: >...Back in August, a NOAA-led study measured a stunning 6% to 12% methane leakage over one of the country’s largest gas fields — which would gut the climate benefits of switching from coal to gas. We’ve known for a long time that methane is a far more potent greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide (CO2), which is released when any hydrocarbon, like natural gas, is burned. But the IPCC’s latest report, released Monday (big PDF here), reports that methane is 34 times stronger a heat-trapping gas than CO2 over a 100-year time scale, so its global-warming potential (GWP) is 34. That is a nearly 40% increase from the IPCC’s previous estimate of 25. ...The IPCC reports that, over a 20-year time frame, methane has a global warming potential of 86 compared to CO2, up from its previous estimate of 72. Given that we are approaching real, irreversible tipping points in the climate system, climate studies should, at the very least, include analyses that use this 20-year time horizon. Finally, it bears repeating that natural gas from even the best fracked wells is still a climate-destroying fossil fuel. If we are to avoid catastrophic warming, our natural gas consumption has to peak sometime in the next 10 to 15 years, according to studies by both the Center for American Progress and the Union of Concerned Scientists. https://thinkprogress.org/more-bad-news-for-fracking-ipcc-warns-methane-traps-much-more-heat-than-we-thought-9c2badf392df https://thinkprogress.org/more-bad-news-for-fracking-ipcc-wa... As we use more and more natural gas, we can expect more and more methane disasters like the leak from Aliso Canyon in CA which was the largest leak in US history. This released over 100,000 tons of methane into the atmosphere and required 11,000 residents to be evacuated. http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-35659947 http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-35659947