5 ms·

I know exactly what you're talking about. I've seen it and even been that guy. We should be clear, though, that the "small fish in a big pond" scenario isn't e

by neilk 9y ago

I know exactly what you're talking about. I've seen it and even been that guy. We should be clear, though, that the "small fish in a big pond" scenario isn't exactly what happened to Joseph Thomas. According to the article he had already had a successful run at LinkedIn and had an offer on the table from Apple. Sometimes even brilliant people just aren't a match, no matter what. But a mismatch is a mutual responsibility, and shouldn't be a brutalizing experience. The fault there lies with Uber.

pm90 9y ago
I'm no fan of Uber but I think this is putting too much blame on them. If you see a toxic culture, leave. I know there are other factors, psychological things that keep you from making rational decisions etc. But lets please be clear: the world is actually a pretty brutal place for most of humanity. Most humans are stuck in a poverty loop they can't ever hope to escape. And we have a story of people who can't just say: "enough! I'm outta here?". I'm certainly not putting the blame on Joseph, he seems to have suffered a lot despite having objectively been a good engineer. But lets not forget that we're all (mostly) at-will employees, there is nothing stopping us from getting up and leaving just right now. Personal responsibility is really important. Perhaps we should be teaching some of this stuff in high school? I don't know what the solution is IMO. I've personally been in toxic situations as well. As soon as I realized my happiness delta was negative, I immediately started looking at other positions and switched.
- throwaway8800 9y ago
  > If you see a toxic culture, leave. This is easier said than done when your own self-worth and ability to see your own value is diminished due to stress, when you have a mortgage and financial obligations and a family to take care of. Not many people are financially independent enough to just quit a job the moment they feel it's become "toxic".
  - pm90 9y ago
    > This is easier said than done when your own self-worth and ability to see your own value is diminished due to stress, when you have a mortgage and financial obligations and a family to take care of. Not many people are financially independent enough to just quit a job the moment they feel it's become "toxic". Well, I never said it was easy. To elaborate more, it is incredibly important to have contingency plans in place, to prevent exactly this sort of situation from happening. One of the first things I did when I started working professionally was to have enough liquidity to last at least a year, which I was able to do only after 3 years of saving aggressively. Which really came in handy after I was laid off a job and had to spend 3 months looking for another one. I really don't understand how one can get married, have kids and not have such plans in place? IMO it seems kinda irresponsible, especially if one is working in tech, where saving money is much easier than in other professions.
    - throwaway8800 9y ago
      I also have a years' worth of living expenses saved, and it also took me about 3 years to build. It has zero impact on my stress level at work. I don't think I feel any more free to leave than if I only had a months worth saved. The idea of leaving and potentially burning through most or all of that portion of my family's savings while I look for another job is no more appealing or satisfying than just staying in the stressful job. Perhaps I'd feel differently if I had several more years saved or if I were more stressed at work. The thing about work stress that builds up is that your mental health declines and you can begin to think very irrationally. Paranoia and depression can set in. I've seen devastating examples of this with people I know. I think it's important not to minimize it or brush it off and to understand that what seems obvious to you or I may not be obvious at all to someone who is feeling burnt out, desperate and depressed from their work situation.
      - pm90 9y ago
        > The thing about work stress that builds up is that your mental health declines and you can begin to think very irrationally. Paranoia and depression can set in. I've seen devastating examples of this with people I know. I think it's important not to minimize it or brush it off and to understand that what seems obvious to you or I may not be obvious at all to someone who is feeling burnt out, desperate and depressed from their work situation. I'm most certainly not "brushing it off" or "minimizing it". I'm advocating for proactive measures to avoid reaching a such a mental state that can drive a person to consider suicide as a reasonable option. In your case, it seems like the measure I suggested (having monetary guarantee for at least a year) is not sufficient, so I would advise you to look for other measures, which you can likely take now when things are good.

by neilk 9y ago

pm90 9y ago

I'm no fan of Uber but I think this is putting too much blame on them. If you see a toxic culture, leave. I know there are other factors, psychological things that keep you from making rational decisions etc. But lets please be clear: the world is actually a pretty brutal place for most of humanity. Most humans are stuck in a poverty loop they can't ever hope to escape. And we have a story of people who can't just say: "enough! I'm outta here?". I'm certainly not putting the blame on Joseph, he seems to have suffered a lot despite having objectively been a good engineer. But lets not forget that we're all (mostly) at-will employees, there is nothing stopping us from getting up and leaving just right now. Personal responsibility is really important. Perhaps we should be teaching some of this stuff in high school? I don't know what the solution is IMO. I've personally been in toxic situations as well. As soon as I realized my happiness delta was negative, I immediately started looking at other positions and switched.

throwaway8800 9y ago
> If you see a toxic culture, leave. This is easier said than done when your own self-worth and ability to see your own value is diminished due to stress, when you have a mortgage and financial obligations and a family to take care of. Not many people are financially independent enough to just quit a job the moment they feel it's become "toxic".
- pm90 9y ago
  > This is easier said than done when your own self-worth and ability to see your own value is diminished due to stress, when you have a mortgage and financial obligations and a family to take care of. Not many people are financially independent enough to just quit a job the moment they feel it's become "toxic". Well, I never said it was easy. To elaborate more, it is incredibly important to have contingency plans in place, to prevent exactly this sort of situation from happening. One of the first things I did when I started working professionally was to have enough liquidity to last at least a year, which I was able to do only after 3 years of saving aggressively. Which really came in handy after I was laid off a job and had to spend 3 months looking for another one. I really don't understand how one can get married, have kids and not have such plans in place? IMO it seems kinda irresponsible, especially if one is working in tech, where saving money is much easier than in other professions.
  - throwaway8800 9y ago
    I also have a years' worth of living expenses saved, and it also took me about 3 years to build. It has zero impact on my stress level at work. I don't think I feel any more free to leave than if I only had a months worth saved. The idea of leaving and potentially burning through most or all of that portion of my family's savings while I look for another job is no more appealing or satisfying than just staying in the stressful job. Perhaps I'd feel differently if I had several more years saved or if I were more stressed at work. The thing about work stress that builds up is that your mental health declines and you can begin to think very irrationally. Paranoia and depression can set in. I've seen devastating examples of this with people I know. I think it's important not to minimize it or brush it off and to understand that what seems obvious to you or I may not be obvious at all to someone who is feeling burnt out, desperate and depressed from their work situation.
    - pm90 9y ago
      > The thing about work stress that builds up is that your mental health declines and you can begin to think very irrationally. Paranoia and depression can set in. I've seen devastating examples of this with people I know. I think it's important not to minimize it or brush it off and to understand that what seems obvious to you or I may not be obvious at all to someone who is feeling burnt out, desperate and depressed from their work situation. I'm most certainly not "brushing it off" or "minimizing it". I'm advocating for proactive measures to avoid reaching a such a mental state that can drive a person to consider suicide as a reasonable option. In your case, it seems like the measure I suggested (having monetary guarantee for at least a year) is not sufficient, so I would advise you to look for other measures, which you can likely take now when things are good.