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I keep reading stories like these on HN, yet I don't know a single person who has experienced anything even remotely close to this. I don't live in the Bay Are

I keep reading stories like these on HN, yet I don't know a single person who has experienced anything even remotely close to this. I don't live in the Bay Area. Are SV startups, in general, really this badly managed? If I add up all anecdata from reading HN comments about toxic work environments, I get the impression that 50% of the Valley is run like this. I have a hard time comprehending how this can happen.

defined 10y ago
I'm such a person, and it's not restricted to SV. My worst experiences were in the South East. I think that many startups, regardless of region, are poorly managed, especially as they go through the transition from startup to something bigger.
BinaryIdiot 10y ago
All of my experiences were on the East Coast. I don't think it's unique to the bay area I just think there is a larger concentration of start-ups so you'll hear about it more frequently but it can easily happen anywhere.
dang 10y ago
It's sample bias. People who experienced dramatic things are far more likely to comment about them. The community is large enough that even a relatively tiny sample produces many comments under this effect.
- skrebbel 10y ago
  Thanks. I was hoping it was just this.
- skypanther 10y ago
  Well, there's the stigma of talking about anything related to mental illness or depression. Personally, I've never shared any of my struggles with inner demons with anyone other than my wife (and now here).
  - dang 10y ago
    Yes, but that's a separate issue from the work environments that I think the GP was wondering about.
k-mcgrady 10y ago
Likewise. I've worked at startups at it was a rare occasion my boss could convince me to stay past 6pm. When we were working on a big release and the work wasn't getting done fast enough or his liking the solution wasn't for me to work extra hours - it was to tell him, "you need to hire another developer to work with me". There are laws to protect you from being worked into the ground and at the end of the day, if you're a developer, finding another one isn't particularly hard whether it's at a startup or a big corp. It's a job, not a lifestyle. Work 9-6 and get out of there.
- pdimitar 10y ago
  I don't disagree with you, but you're overestimating the desire of most devs (at least most I ever knew) to hop between jobs. Yes we're sought after but that doesn't mean we want to re-adjust 4 times a year.
  - k-mcgrady 10y ago
    Of course, what I meant was that if your employer is forcing you to work 60 hour weeks you shouldn't fear threatening to quit as if you have to follow through on your threat it's unlikely you will be without employment for long. Unfortunately, in a lot of industries people don't have this luxury.
    - pdimitar 10y ago
      I agree with this, yes and thank you. I talked about people with more specific requirements like myself (100% remote being example).
  - pm90 10y ago
    > 4 times a year. I think if you have to switch 4 times a year, either you're exceptionally unlucky or exceptionally bad at evaluating jobs for their effect on your personal fulfillment/happiness.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
gk1 10y ago
This isn't unique to startups, let alone SV startups. I know from personal experience that work environments like this exist in finance and advertising, too.
TheCondor 10y ago
I'm not a psychologist but I have observed this kind of syndrome a couple times and I think it's usually more like a performance anxiety. You take the big fish out of the little pond and all the sudden he's a small fish in a big pond and it's a culture shock. The time lines, the compromises and the urgency are all different at a startup. You are used to being the smartest guy in the room at a mid sized or big place, you go to a small startup that got money because the founders are exceptional and they've staffed up with some exceptional people and they are all running like hell, you might look or feel kind of ordinary and that's a tough pill to swallow. It's especially difficult if you've never felt it before, all the sudden you're "failing" Combine that with a family that thinks the world of you because "you're the best" and I expect it's worse. Or at least that is how I've tried to understand it. There are clearly other issues when it results in suicide though. Again, I'm no doctor, but I try to give them an interview problem they can't solve, I think it's good if they say "I don't know how" or "I can't do that yet" Another symptom I've observed, when someone is in that space, they often try to do more. Rather than botching one feature, maybe they'll rush and half-ass three or four to try and "make up" for earlier shortcomings. That usually creates a rift with the team that then starts to think less of them, the new guy is a bull in a China shop. As for management, they share some of it. Uber seems like a broken place in a lot of ways. They should know it takes time to ramp up. Also success begets success, I take things off a new employee's plate when this happens. Make it small enough for them to create a little success and then build on it. In SV there is a large talent pool and a belief that the "right person" is around there somewhere so building long term success might not be as important to some companies.
- neilk 10y ago
  I know exactly what you're talking about. I've seen it and even been that guy. We should be clear, though, that the "small fish in a big pond" scenario isn't exactly what happened to Joseph Thomas. According to the article he had already had a successful run at LinkedIn and had an offer on the table from Apple. Sometimes even brilliant people just aren't a match, no matter what. But a mismatch is a mutual responsibility, and shouldn't be a brutalizing experience. The fault there lies with Uber.
  - 10y ago
sjg007 10y ago
You could call it the Steve Jobs problem... or at least he is a well known face of it. Amazon apparently has similar issues as well so it is not just startups. The worst are whisper campaigns of passive aggressiveness.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
cmorelli 10y ago
For better or worse, SV is home to a lot of incredibly high-risk investments, and a large of early startups. Startups with a lot of money on the line and no path to revenue will do crazy things that frequently lead to toxic work environments. Raise $10 million for a product that doesn't have a market fit, hire 10 people, provide them no clear vision for your business or product, tell them to make money, and watch as your business gets pulled in 20 different directions, employees fight, and people stress out. It's not likely to end well for anyone. It's definitely going to be more common in places where riskier investments are more likely to happen. Uber, as an example, was last valued at nearly $70b and loses nearly $800m every quarter. I would imagine that kind of cash burn with no clear path to profitability is incredibly stressful on everyone. It's almost certainly the cause for many of the horrible decisions that seem to have been made there, and the same thing can apply at smaller scales to earlier businesses.
kirillzubovsky 10y ago
Do you have kids? Imagine putting a toddler in charge of millions and millions of dollars. Now your house and paycheck and all of your life is dependent on the demands of the toddler, and shall you try and instill any reason, she throws a tantrum and threatens to replace you with anyone else who just says "yes." That's a simple, and yet so close-to-real way to look at the reason why bad apples exist. That said, your 50% view is probably skewed. We like to read "sensational" stories, but for every bad company out there, thousands smart and caring founders build great companies every day.

defined 10y ago

I'm such a person, and it's not restricted to SV. My worst experiences were in the South East. I think that many startups, regardless of region, are poorly managed, especially as they go through the transition from startup to something bigger.

BinaryIdiot 10y ago

All of my experiences were on the East Coast. I don't think it's unique to the bay area I just think there is a larger concentration of start-ups so you'll hear about it more frequently but it can easily happen anywhere.

dang 10y ago

It's sample bias. People who experienced dramatic things are far more likely to comment about them. The community is large enough that even a relatively tiny sample produces many comments under this effect.

skrebbel 10y ago
Thanks. I was hoping it was just this.
skypanther 10y ago
Well, there's the stigma of talking about anything related to mental illness or depression. Personally, I've never shared any of my struggles with inner demons with anyone other than my wife (and now here).
- dang 10y ago
  Yes, but that's a separate issue from the work environments that I think the GP was wondering about.

k-mcgrady 10y ago

Likewise. I've worked at startups at it was a rare occasion my boss could convince me to stay past 6pm. When we were working on a big release and the work wasn't getting done fast enough or his liking the solution wasn't for me to work extra hours - it was to tell him, "you need to hire another developer to work with me". There are laws to protect you from being worked into the ground and at the end of the day, if you're a developer, finding another one isn't particularly hard whether it's at a startup or a big corp. It's a job, not a lifestyle. Work 9-6 and get out of there.

pdimitar 10y ago
I don't disagree with you, but you're overestimating the desire of most devs (at least most I ever knew) to hop between jobs. Yes we're sought after but that doesn't mean we want to re-adjust 4 times a year.
- k-mcgrady 10y ago
  Of course, what I meant was that if your employer is forcing you to work 60 hour weeks you shouldn't fear threatening to quit as if you have to follow through on your threat it's unlikely you will be without employment for long. Unfortunately, in a lot of industries people don't have this luxury.
  - pdimitar 10y ago
    I agree with this, yes and thank you. I talked about people with more specific requirements like myself (100% remote being example).
- pm90 10y ago
  > 4 times a year. I think if you have to switch 4 times a year, either you're exceptionally unlucky or exceptionally bad at evaluating jobs for their effect on your personal fulfillment/happiness.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

gk1 10y ago

This isn't unique to startups, let alone SV startups. I know from personal experience that work environments like this exist in finance and advertising, too.

TheCondor 10y ago

I'm not a psychologist but I have observed this kind of syndrome a couple times and I think it's usually more like a performance anxiety. You take the big fish out of the little pond and all the sudden he's a small fish in a big pond and it's a culture shock. The time lines, the compromises and the urgency are all different at a startup. You are used to being the smartest guy in the room at a mid sized or big place, you go to a small startup that got money because the founders are exceptional and they've staffed up with some exceptional people and they are all running like hell, you might look or feel kind of ordinary and that's a tough pill to swallow. It's especially difficult if you've never felt it before, all the sudden you're "failing" Combine that with a family that thinks the world of you because "you're the best" and I expect it's worse. Or at least that is how I've tried to understand it. There are clearly other issues when it results in suicide though. Again, I'm no doctor, but I try to give them an interview problem they can't solve, I think it's good if they say "I don't know how" or "I can't do that yet" Another symptom I've observed, when someone is in that space, they often try to do more. Rather than botching one feature, maybe they'll rush and half-ass three or four to try and "make up" for earlier shortcomings. That usually creates a rift with the team that then starts to think less of them, the new guy is a bull in a China shop. As for management, they share some of it. Uber seems like a broken place in a lot of ways. They should know it takes time to ramp up. Also success begets success, I take things off a new employee's plate when this happens. Make it small enough for them to create a little success and then build on it. In SV there is a large talent pool and a belief that the "right person" is around there somewhere so building long term success might not be as important to some companies.

neilk 10y ago
I know exactly what you're talking about. I've seen it and even been that guy. We should be clear, though, that the "small fish in a big pond" scenario isn't exactly what happened to Joseph Thomas. According to the article he had already had a successful run at LinkedIn and had an offer on the table from Apple. Sometimes even brilliant people just aren't a match, no matter what. But a mismatch is a mutual responsibility, and shouldn't be a brutalizing experience. The fault there lies with Uber.
- 10y ago

sjg007 10y ago

You could call it the Steve Jobs problem... or at least he is a well known face of it. Amazon apparently has similar issues as well so it is not just startups. The worst are whisper campaigns of passive aggressiveness.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

cmorelli 10y ago

For better or worse, SV is home to a lot of incredibly high-risk investments, and a large of early startups. Startups with a lot of money on the line and no path to revenue will do crazy things that frequently lead to toxic work environments. Raise $10 million for a product that doesn't have a market fit, hire 10 people, provide them no clear vision for your business or product, tell them to make money, and watch as your business gets pulled in 20 different directions, employees fight, and people stress out. It's not likely to end well for anyone. It's definitely going to be more common in places where riskier investments are more likely to happen. Uber, as an example, was last valued at nearly $70b and loses nearly $800m every quarter. I would imagine that kind of cash burn with no clear path to profitability is incredibly stressful on everyone. It's almost certainly the cause for many of the horrible decisions that seem to have been made there, and the same thing can apply at smaller scales to earlier businesses.

kirillzubovsky 10y ago

Do you have kids? Imagine putting a toddler in charge of millions and millions of dollars. Now your house and paycheck and all of your life is dependent on the demands of the toddler, and shall you try and instill any reason, she throws a tantrum and threatens to replace you with anyone else who just says "yes." That's a simple, and yet so close-to-real way to look at the reason why bad apples exist. That said, your 50% view is probably skewed. We like to read "sensational" stories, but for every bad company out there, thousands smart and caring founders build great companies every day.