5 ms·

Well said. I've worked at 3 start-ups and at all of them I've worked long, grueling hours with the most recent one I was doing at least 65 hours a week (typical

Well said. I've worked at 3 start-ups and at all of them I've worked long, grueling hours with the most recent one I was doing at least 65 hours a week (typically longer especially with a 3+ hour commute). I became severely burned out to the point where I didn't want to look for work or do much of anything. I was depressed and had severe anxiety. I went to the hospital with an anxiety attack so strong that I literally thought I was having a heart attack and was going to die in front of my two year old (I was trying to explain to her what to do if daddy passes out). My chest was in pain, my arm numb; I still don't understand how it wasn't a heart attack because of how intense it felt. I eventually took some time off and started interviewing at various places. Shortly after taking time off I was told that the founders felt I wasn't "working fast enough" and was fired. I had never been fired from a job before and I contest their reasoning but secretly felt incredible relief to the point where I barely even argued, I just packed up my stuff and left with a smile on my face. Now I'm working at a place with fantastic work life balance.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
nul_byte 10y ago
This is why I am highly sceptical of start ups, and it would take a helluva a lot for someone to convince me to join another. I prefer big corps, as its possible to control you work load a little more and transfer internally if you get a bad boss.
- sbarre 10y ago
  Yeah I don't think it's that simple. In my current job (team of 30) we work with lots of very large corps (telcos, finance, airlines, etc), and I've been exposed to the internal workings of their IT & dev teams, and in almost all cases I've seen intense mismanagement and high-stress environments. Imagine the stress that comes with figuring out new tech and solving new problems at the level of a startup, and then cross that with the financial stakes, entrenched processes and the management abstraction that exist in a large corporation, and you can see how big corps have their own versions of the same problem.. The combination of feeling like you're responsible for solving massive problems but have none of the ability to influence or determine how they will be solved is a terrible situation to be in.
  - defined 10y ago
    I will vouch for this. A large company in many cases behaves like $startup_dysfunctionality + $dysfunctionality_from_fast_post_startup_growth + $years_of_wild_hiring + $years_of_reorgs + $useless_and_obstructive_policies_and_standards
- sotojuan 10y ago
  I work at a startup and leave after eight hours. They're not all bad.
  - secstate 10y ago
    Same here. The other day my supervisor caught me working late and told me to leave ;)
  - BinaryIdiot 10y ago
    Yup, even with my story the very first start-up I worked at wasn't that bad with the hours. We had the occasional crunch time, sure, but I rarely worked more than 8 hours a day. It really depends on management style, the stage of the start-up, and how technical management is (the less technical the more customer promises and more hours for employees to work, in my experience, because they don't entirely understand what is or isn't doable in a specific timeframe and burn-out is a lot harder to explain to someone non-technical).
    - nojvek 10y ago
      I work at startup called Mixpanel usually 8 hours a day and sometimes even less if I get mostly what I need to get done. I've worked at big cos like Microsoft and other smaller companies too. Some startups legit give a shit about employees. We are also hiring if anyone is interested.
- unoti 10y ago
  This issue isn't exclusively about big corps vs startups. There are parts of big established corps where they're growing so fast in new lines of business that it's essentially a startup in terms of the stage of process and systems maturity. There are startups at the other end of the spectrum. I think it has more to do with the leadership than the size or age of the company.
- cmorelli 10y ago
  My observation is that this is far more a function of the business' product/market fit than it is the size or age of the business. When you're struggling to pay salaries and bills, and there's no end in sight, often the business (knowingly or not) overworks and stresses their teams to try to make up ground. Unfortunately, the last 3-5 years have seen a lot of very high-risk seed investments in products that seem to have no actual viable path to revenue, which fuels this belief that startups are the problem. This is not to say startups are without risk; they obviously carry risk. My point is simply that you can absolutely find a startup that will provide you with a reasonable work/life balance. Remember, interviews are as much for your benefit (if not more) than they are for the business. Use the opportunity to ask them about their product, their revenue, their roadmap. You'll probably get a good idea of how hectic things are. And for any founders/employers out there - respecting the personal lives of your teammates will actually make them far more productive, not less. Aside from just being the right thing to do, it also has the benefit of earning their trust and respect, which will keep them with you.
defined 10y ago
Ha! Funny you say that. When I was laid off the job I was stuck at because of the visa situation, my colleagues thought I had gone insane because I was so obviously happy and smiling right after getting the news. The fact is, it was such a huge relief to be shot of that dysfunction-personified environment that I thought, and I quote, "This is one of the best days of my life!" The twist in the tail was that I had just received my permanent residence in the USA, and by laying me off, the company had been forced to forgive the many thousands of dollars in legal immigration fees I would have had to repay them, had I left voluntarily to seek other work.
- sundvor 10y ago
  That's brilliant, very happy for you! When I was made redundant from my last job, which was a very toxic place, I was extremely happy as well - seeing as I no longer had to work for those people. Needed the redundancy payment for the time to get myself back in mental shape, though... and then to find a new job. I feel sad for the family of the Uber engineer.
- ionwake 10y ago
  How long did it take for your residency to come once you moved to the country?
Pigo 10y ago
I totally relate. I'll never forget my first anxiety attack, what makes it so bad is that you don't know what's going on, and that only makes your anxiety worse. First my mouth went numb and then it started spreading down to my chest and right arm, I thought for sure I was having a heart attack. I thought anxiety attacks were just freaking out of something in particular. I was relatively relaxed when it first hit me.
- BinaryIdiot 10y ago
  Right? This was my second one, too as I had one at my previous job (also a start-up working with the same folks). My first one was apparently incredibly minor because I thought I just had some labored breathing and soreness but that last attack...I wouldn't wish it on anyone. I too always thought an anxiety attack was someone just freaking out because they can't handle something and they're being a little bit of a baby, etc. Boy did my attitude change completely. I had no idea!!
smoe 10y ago
Hope you don't mind me asking, but why would you work 65 hours in the first place? Or what do people expect to truly gain for "giving up" almost all of their waking hours for a company? High salary, equity, respect of peers, personal growth?
- BinaryIdiot 10y ago
  Sure. So we had all worked together before and we all just "got shit done" no matter what. At a previous job sometimes this meant working extra a few weeks but it wasn't every week. The management at companies like this take it to mean you can do this every week and every week it has to get done in order to get a customer, etc. So you don't want to let anyone down and possibly lose business. So you bust your ass, week after week, putting out fire after fire, until you burn out. I'm all for people working extra during certain crunch times. That's unavoidable a lot of the time. But doing it, week after week, for years? No good. I don't care how great the company is it simply isn't sustainable without significantly harming employees.
neuromantik8086 10y ago
Perhaps unsurprisingly, I experienced a similar issue with chest pain at my last employer, freaked out and took a day off to visit a hospital. My parents talked me down from thinking it was a heart attack, so I didn't go to the ER but ended up talking with my general practitioner the next morning. He suggested that it might be due to stress-induced inflammation at rib cage joints.
twayamznacct 10y ago
I wish it was that simple for me...by all rights I work at a place with good work-life balance (not a startup) and good management that doesn't drive stress into devs, but I feel innately against everything in this industry at this point. 99.99% of everything anyone does, including myself, seems utterly pointless. I've had anxiety attacks so bad because of this that I haven't been able to get out of bed in the morning. I can't remember the last time I've legitimately felt happy.
- BinaryIdiot 10y ago
  I'm sorry to hear that. Have you talked with anyone? Have you explored jumping to a different industry? Anxiety attacks are awful. I hope you can find something better.
  - twayamznacct 10y ago
    I haven't talked with anyone, unfortunately. And I have thought about moving to a different industry but I don't even know where to start with that. Despite my total, and growing dislike, for this industry, it remains the sole thing I identify with (which is also a problem). I do recognize that the first step is talking with someone but...it's a tough first step.
    - ThrowawayP 10y ago
      > I do recognize that the first step is talking with someone but...it's a tough first step. It actually does help to talk through things and therapists are trained to be non-judgmental and supportive. I urge you to try it if things get too tough for you.
- jnicholasp 10y ago
  I can't help you with the job situation problem, but on the subject of anxiety attacks, you might find this post by a psychiatrist helpful: http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/04/05/the-case-of-the-suffocating-woman/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/04/05/the-case-of-the-suffoca...

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

nul_byte 10y ago

This is why I am highly sceptical of start ups, and it would take a helluva a lot for someone to convince me to join another. I prefer big corps, as its possible to control you work load a little more and transfer internally if you get a bad boss.

sbarre 10y ago
Yeah I don't think it's that simple. In my current job (team of 30) we work with lots of very large corps (telcos, finance, airlines, etc), and I've been exposed to the internal workings of their IT & dev teams, and in almost all cases I've seen intense mismanagement and high-stress environments. Imagine the stress that comes with figuring out new tech and solving new problems at the level of a startup, and then cross that with the financial stakes, entrenched processes and the management abstraction that exist in a large corporation, and you can see how big corps have their own versions of the same problem.. The combination of feeling like you're responsible for solving massive problems but have none of the ability to influence or determine how they will be solved is a terrible situation to be in.
- defined 10y ago
  I will vouch for this. A large company in many cases behaves like $startup_dysfunctionality + $dysfunctionality_from_fast_post_startup_growth + $years_of_wild_hiring + $years_of_reorgs + $useless_and_obstructive_policies_and_standards
sotojuan 10y ago
I work at a startup and leave after eight hours. They're not all bad.
- secstate 10y ago
  Same here. The other day my supervisor caught me working late and told me to leave ;)
- BinaryIdiot 10y ago
  Yup, even with my story the very first start-up I worked at wasn't that bad with the hours. We had the occasional crunch time, sure, but I rarely worked more than 8 hours a day. It really depends on management style, the stage of the start-up, and how technical management is (the less technical the more customer promises and more hours for employees to work, in my experience, because they don't entirely understand what is or isn't doable in a specific timeframe and burn-out is a lot harder to explain to someone non-technical).
  - nojvek 10y ago
    I work at startup called Mixpanel usually 8 hours a day and sometimes even less if I get mostly what I need to get done. I've worked at big cos like Microsoft and other smaller companies too. Some startups legit give a shit about employees. We are also hiring if anyone is interested.
unoti 10y ago
This issue isn't exclusively about big corps vs startups. There are parts of big established corps where they're growing so fast in new lines of business that it's essentially a startup in terms of the stage of process and systems maturity. There are startups at the other end of the spectrum. I think it has more to do with the leadership than the size or age of the company.
cmorelli 10y ago
My observation is that this is far more a function of the business' product/market fit than it is the size or age of the business. When you're struggling to pay salaries and bills, and there's no end in sight, often the business (knowingly or not) overworks and stresses their teams to try to make up ground. Unfortunately, the last 3-5 years have seen a lot of very high-risk seed investments in products that seem to have no actual viable path to revenue, which fuels this belief that startups are the problem. This is not to say startups are without risk; they obviously carry risk. My point is simply that you can absolutely find a startup that will provide you with a reasonable work/life balance. Remember, interviews are as much for your benefit (if not more) than they are for the business. Use the opportunity to ask them about their product, their revenue, their roadmap. You'll probably get a good idea of how hectic things are. And for any founders/employers out there - respecting the personal lives of your teammates will actually make them far more productive, not less. Aside from just being the right thing to do, it also has the benefit of earning their trust and respect, which will keep them with you.

defined 10y ago

Ha! Funny you say that. When I was laid off the job I was stuck at because of the visa situation, my colleagues thought I had gone insane because I was so obviously happy and smiling right after getting the news. The fact is, it was such a huge relief to be shot of that dysfunction-personified environment that I thought, and I quote, "This is one of the best days of my life!" The twist in the tail was that I had just received my permanent residence in the USA, and by laying me off, the company had been forced to forgive the many thousands of dollars in legal immigration fees I would have had to repay them, had I left voluntarily to seek other work.

sundvor 10y ago
That's brilliant, very happy for you! When I was made redundant from my last job, which was a very toxic place, I was extremely happy as well - seeing as I no longer had to work for those people. Needed the redundancy payment for the time to get myself back in mental shape, though... and then to find a new job. I feel sad for the family of the Uber engineer.
ionwake 10y ago
How long did it take for your residency to come once you moved to the country?

Pigo 10y ago

I totally relate. I'll never forget my first anxiety attack, what makes it so bad is that you don't know what's going on, and that only makes your anxiety worse. First my mouth went numb and then it started spreading down to my chest and right arm, I thought for sure I was having a heart attack. I thought anxiety attacks were just freaking out of something in particular. I was relatively relaxed when it first hit me.

BinaryIdiot 10y ago
Right? This was my second one, too as I had one at my previous job (also a start-up working with the same folks). My first one was apparently incredibly minor because I thought I just had some labored breathing and soreness but that last attack...I wouldn't wish it on anyone. I too always thought an anxiety attack was someone just freaking out because they can't handle something and they're being a little bit of a baby, etc. Boy did my attitude change completely. I had no idea!!

smoe 10y ago

Hope you don't mind me asking, but why would you work 65 hours in the first place? Or what do people expect to truly gain for "giving up" almost all of their waking hours for a company? High salary, equity, respect of peers, personal growth?

BinaryIdiot 10y ago
Sure. So we had all worked together before and we all just "got shit done" no matter what. At a previous job sometimes this meant working extra a few weeks but it wasn't every week. The management at companies like this take it to mean you can do this every week and every week it has to get done in order to get a customer, etc. So you don't want to let anyone down and possibly lose business. So you bust your ass, week after week, putting out fire after fire, until you burn out. I'm all for people working extra during certain crunch times. That's unavoidable a lot of the time. But doing it, week after week, for years? No good. I don't care how great the company is it simply isn't sustainable without significantly harming employees.

neuromantik8086 10y ago

Perhaps unsurprisingly, I experienced a similar issue with chest pain at my last employer, freaked out and took a day off to visit a hospital. My parents talked me down from thinking it was a heart attack, so I didn't go to the ER but ended up talking with my general practitioner the next morning. He suggested that it might be due to stress-induced inflammation at rib cage joints.

twayamznacct 10y ago

I wish it was that simple for me...by all rights I work at a place with good work-life balance (not a startup) and good management that doesn't drive stress into devs, but I feel innately against everything in this industry at this point. 99.99% of everything anyone does, including myself, seems utterly pointless. I've had anxiety attacks so bad because of this that I haven't been able to get out of bed in the morning. I can't remember the last time I've legitimately felt happy.

BinaryIdiot 10y ago
I'm sorry to hear that. Have you talked with anyone? Have you explored jumping to a different industry? Anxiety attacks are awful. I hope you can find something better.
- twayamznacct 10y ago
  I haven't talked with anyone, unfortunately. And I have thought about moving to a different industry but I don't even know where to start with that. Despite my total, and growing dislike, for this industry, it remains the sole thing I identify with (which is also a problem). I do recognize that the first step is talking with someone but...it's a tough first step.
  - ThrowawayP 10y ago
    > I do recognize that the first step is talking with someone but...it's a tough first step. It actually does help to talk through things and therapists are trained to be non-judgmental and supportive. I urge you to try it if things get too tough for you.
jnicholasp 10y ago
I can't help you with the job situation problem, but on the subject of anxiety attacks, you might find this post by a psychiatrist helpful: http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/04/05/the-case-of-the-suffocating-woman/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/04/05/the-case-of-the-suffoca...