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If someone is in the state of mind of wanting to take their own life, will they desire to call to talk to a stranger on a hotline? "In spite of their popularit

If someone is in the state of mind of wanting to take their own life, will they desire to call to talk to a stranger on a hotline? "In spite of their popularity and attractiveness, so far there is no conclusive evidence on the effectiveness of suicide prevention hot lines and crise centres" (2004) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1414695/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1414695/

zkms 9y ago
It goes beyond just hotlines (which IME are useless at best and actively harmful at worst (having law-enforcement called on you is no fun)) -- the suicide rate for the past 80ish years in US has remained remarkably flat, despite many advances in psychiatry: https://twitter.com/sarahdoingthing/status/682382195839877120 https://twitter.com/sarahdoingthing/status/68238219583987712...
- toomuchtodo 9y ago
  "Suicides In Rural America Increased More Than 40% In 16 Years" http://acsh.org/news/2017/03/16/suicides-rural-america-increased-more-40-16-years-11010 http://acsh.org/news/2017/03/16/suicides-rural-america-incre...
toomuchtodo 9y ago
Maybe, maybe not. Regardless, we should still strive to give that person alternatives. "Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle". -- Plato Edit: @aaron695: that is what I was trying to communicate
- droopyEyelids 9y ago
  I think the point is we should be careful about "doing something" and then indulging in the satisfaction of "something has been done", especially if there is no evidence that the 'something' we pick is beneficial to anyone.
  - toomuchtodo 9y ago
    I would agree with you if the cost was high. Running a suicide prevention hotline strikes me as a low cost preventative measure, moreso if you get actuarial/gruesome and take into account someone's dollar value as a human being (mid to high six figures for most people).
    - benchaney 9y ago
      The real cost of doing something because something must be done is the false sense of satisfaction. That cost is potentially very high in this case.
      - toomuchtodo 9y ago
        An educated guess now is better then perfect data later. We should of course continue to research ways to stem suicides and the conditions that cultivate someone feeling they have no other options.
      - cryptarch 9y ago
        And so is the potential cost of not doing anything, so what's your point? You seem to conjecture that refering someone to a hotline raises the chance of that person commiting suicide, while AFAIK all the evidence points towards suicide hotlines being effective at reducing stress and suicidality.
        benchaney 9y ago
        Sorry, what? Not doing anything may result in a false sense of satisfaction? > seem to conjecture that refering someone to a hotline raises the chance of that person commiting suicide I don't conjecture this at all. > all the evidence points towards suicide hotlines being effective at reducing stress and suicidality. What evidence? The entire point of this subthread is that we don't have any evidence that this is true. Or do you have some evidence we don't know about?
- aaron695 9y ago
  > Regardless, we should still strive to give that person alternatives. No. We should strive to help them. This comment it literally saying we should feel better about ourselves even though I'm sure it wasn't your intention.
- golergka 9y ago
  Why do we, in general, accept any personal decision that does not interfere with other people, but refuse to accept the ultimate decision a person can make in regards to his live? I'm not suicidal at the moment and feel that my life has some purpose - but why would I assume that a person who is suicidal knows less about his own life than I do?
  - gk1 9y ago
    The decision to commit suicide is rarely made in a rational state of mind. Unlike most decisions, however, this one is permanent.
    - golergka 9y ago
      Almost all of our decisions are, really, permanent - and most of the time, we're not making them rationally. Break up with your significant other - then, even if you decide to "reverse" it and get back together, it won't be the same relationship anymore. Quit from your job - most likely, you won't work for the same company ever again. Yes, these are only parts of life, and suicide ends life as a whole - but you have reasons why you're not stopping all of your friends from making all the small wrong decisions, right? You probably reason that they might know better, and if anything, their freedom includes the right to make mistakes. Well, the same reasoning logically works for suicide, too - the magnitude of the components change, but the formula is still the same. I agree that it's a good idea to talk to someone who tries to commit suicide and make sure that they really want to make this decision and have thought about it - but our culture, meanwhile, painfully rejects the notion that in the end, you may agree with that person in their pursuit of suicide. On another hand, you probably (statistically, given HN typical audience) support right to euthanasia; you think that if someone have immense physical suffering and no hope to escape from it, death is a viable alternative. But why do we reject the same treatment for emotional and intellectual suffering? You can't really feel both types, but for some reason, you suppose that one is more 'real' than another. That any emotional trouble can be healed, because "it's just in your head". Respect for someone's freedom begins with respect for his decisions and respect for his mistakes. Too often the true reason for all this unasked for "help" is in selfish desire to "do good" instead of real empathy for another human being.
BinaryIdiot 9y ago
> When they analysed results of studies combined by setting and intervention, and by exposure to intervention, sadly enough, the highest percentage of reduction in suicide rates observed was 4%. Wow, that's unfortunate. I wonder if any follow-up studies have been done with more modern technology. For instance would / does SMS or other message services fair better than a phone call today than the phone call itself faired in 2004? I wonder if there are any ways to help when simply existing as an anonymous person on the internet. You always see hotlines and other resources copied and pasted and I had always hoped they helped.
roystonvassey 9y ago
Unless you know now of a better solution, it is important to, at least, point out the options available. Are there other interventions that are better than hotlines?
- jupiter90000 9y ago
  I'm not sure. I just get the feeling the hotlines are more for people to feel like they're doing something to help, when maybe they're really not doing much at all. I'd like to find out more about what really would help, and hope that I and others would be willing to put the real effort in to make a difference, behind something that works.
  - vacri 9y ago
    The next line immediately after the one you quoted was "Admittedly, it seems that their efficacy to help people in crises (not necessarily suicidal) is far greater than their impact on suicide rates." Crisis hotlines are definitely doing things, even if the suicide prevention analysis bit is inconclusive.
- bigbugbag 9y ago
  According to science, regulating firearms is effective is reducing suicide rates. https://soundcloud.com/science-vs/guns https://soundcloud.com/science-vs/guns https://soundcloud.com/science-vs/gun-control-pt-2 https://soundcloud.com/science-vs/gun-control-pt-2
  - sundvor 9y ago
    Alternatively, according to what most of the rest of the world would like to call "common sense".
jankedeen 9y ago
TBH I did once and they were angry and rude.

zkms 9y ago

It goes beyond just hotlines (which IME are useless at best and actively harmful at worst (having law-enforcement called on you is no fun)) -- the suicide rate for the past 80ish years in US has remained remarkably flat, despite many advances in psychiatry: https://twitter.com/sarahdoingthing/status/682382195839877120 https://twitter.com/sarahdoingthing/status/68238219583987712...

toomuchtodo 9y ago
"Suicides In Rural America Increased More Than 40% In 16 Years" http://acsh.org/news/2017/03/16/suicides-rural-america-increased-more-40-16-years-11010 http://acsh.org/news/2017/03/16/suicides-rural-america-incre...

toomuchtodo 9y ago

Maybe, maybe not. Regardless, we should still strive to give that person alternatives. "Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle". -- Plato Edit: @aaron695: that is what I was trying to communicate

droopyEyelids 9y ago
I think the point is we should be careful about "doing something" and then indulging in the satisfaction of "something has been done", especially if there is no evidence that the 'something' we pick is beneficial to anyone.
- toomuchtodo 9y ago
  I would agree with you if the cost was high. Running a suicide prevention hotline strikes me as a low cost preventative measure, moreso if you get actuarial/gruesome and take into account someone's dollar value as a human being (mid to high six figures for most people).
  - benchaney 9y ago
    The real cost of doing something because something must be done is the false sense of satisfaction. That cost is potentially very high in this case.
    - toomuchtodo 9y ago
      An educated guess now is better then perfect data later. We should of course continue to research ways to stem suicides and the conditions that cultivate someone feeling they have no other options.
    - cryptarch 9y ago
      And so is the potential cost of not doing anything, so what's your point? You seem to conjecture that refering someone to a hotline raises the chance of that person commiting suicide, while AFAIK all the evidence points towards suicide hotlines being effective at reducing stress and suicidality.
      - benchaney 9y ago
        Sorry, what? Not doing anything may result in a false sense of satisfaction? > seem to conjecture that refering someone to a hotline raises the chance of that person commiting suicide I don't conjecture this at all. > all the evidence points towards suicide hotlines being effective at reducing stress and suicidality. What evidence? The entire point of this subthread is that we don't have any evidence that this is true. Or do you have some evidence we don't know about?
aaron695 9y ago
> Regardless, we should still strive to give that person alternatives. No. We should strive to help them. This comment it literally saying we should feel better about ourselves even though I'm sure it wasn't your intention.
golergka 9y ago
Why do we, in general, accept any personal decision that does not interfere with other people, but refuse to accept the ultimate decision a person can make in regards to his live? I'm not suicidal at the moment and feel that my life has some purpose - but why would I assume that a person who is suicidal knows less about his own life than I do?
- gk1 9y ago
  The decision to commit suicide is rarely made in a rational state of mind. Unlike most decisions, however, this one is permanent.
  - golergka 9y ago
    Almost all of our decisions are, really, permanent - and most of the time, we're not making them rationally. Break up with your significant other - then, even if you decide to "reverse" it and get back together, it won't be the same relationship anymore. Quit from your job - most likely, you won't work for the same company ever again. Yes, these are only parts of life, and suicide ends life as a whole - but you have reasons why you're not stopping all of your friends from making all the small wrong decisions, right? You probably reason that they might know better, and if anything, their freedom includes the right to make mistakes. Well, the same reasoning logically works for suicide, too - the magnitude of the components change, but the formula is still the same. I agree that it's a good idea to talk to someone who tries to commit suicide and make sure that they really want to make this decision and have thought about it - but our culture, meanwhile, painfully rejects the notion that in the end, you may agree with that person in their pursuit of suicide. On another hand, you probably (statistically, given HN typical audience) support right to euthanasia; you think that if someone have immense physical suffering and no hope to escape from it, death is a viable alternative. But why do we reject the same treatment for emotional and intellectual suffering? You can't really feel both types, but for some reason, you suppose that one is more 'real' than another. That any emotional trouble can be healed, because "it's just in your head". Respect for someone's freedom begins with respect for his decisions and respect for his mistakes. Too often the true reason for all this unasked for "help" is in selfish desire to "do good" instead of real empathy for another human being.

BinaryIdiot 9y ago

> When they analysed results of studies combined by setting and intervention, and by exposure to intervention, sadly enough, the highest percentage of reduction in suicide rates observed was 4%. Wow, that's unfortunate. I wonder if any follow-up studies have been done with more modern technology. For instance would / does SMS or other message services fair better than a phone call today than the phone call itself faired in 2004? I wonder if there are any ways to help when simply existing as an anonymous person on the internet. You always see hotlines and other resources copied and pasted and I had always hoped they helped.

roystonvassey 9y ago

Unless you know now of a better solution, it is important to, at least, point out the options available. Are there other interventions that are better than hotlines?

jupiter90000 9y ago
I'm not sure. I just get the feeling the hotlines are more for people to feel like they're doing something to help, when maybe they're really not doing much at all. I'd like to find out more about what really would help, and hope that I and others would be willing to put the real effort in to make a difference, behind something that works.
- vacri 9y ago
  The next line immediately after the one you quoted was "Admittedly, it seems that their efficacy to help people in crises (not necessarily suicidal) is far greater than their impact on suicide rates." Crisis hotlines are definitely doing things, even if the suicide prevention analysis bit is inconclusive.
bigbugbag 9y ago
According to science, regulating firearms is effective is reducing suicide rates. https://soundcloud.com/science-vs/guns https://soundcloud.com/science-vs/guns https://soundcloud.com/science-vs/gun-control-pt-2 https://soundcloud.com/science-vs/gun-control-pt-2
- sundvor 9y ago
  Alternatively, according to what most of the rest of the world would like to call "common sense".

jankedeen 9y ago

TBH I did once and they were angry and rude.