14 ms·

This is not unique to Uber. I have worked in toxic environments that depleted and debilitated me to the point that, in two cases, I was psychologically complet

This is not unique to Uber. I have worked in toxic environments that depleted and debilitated me to the point that, in two cases, I was psychologically completely incapable of even thinking about finding work for three months after being laid off from one, and quitting the other. It doesn't even take abusive bosses who don't like you, although that just makes it far worse. It simply takes being treated like a robotic code monkey who is expected to do everything that is ordered, without question, and micromanaged to the point of insanity, while people in management positions make decisions - and then reverse them - that are so obviously wrong to any competent engineer that it makes Dilbert's PHB look like Einstein in comparison. This is not much of an exaggeration. This is bad enough for any regular human to endure, but take a skilled engineer who probably suffers from impostor syndrome and the upper end of the Dunning-Kruger effect, and it is a recipe for a breakdown and, quite possibly, suicide. Those who would glibly criticize such people for not going and getting another job, or just quitting, are out of touch with how badly one's confidence is damaged by that point; it would not be unreasonable to compare the psychology to that of abused spouses who don't leave their abusers. Also, I could not leave one of the jobs without losing my work visa and being deported (it was back in 2003 before visa portability). Maybe others are in situations that make it harder than expected to move on. My deepest empathy goes to this engineer, and to all others who suffer in this way, and to their families. We need to pay far more attention to the destruction that is done by quasi-sociopathic managers.

BinaryIdiot 9y ago
Well said. I've worked at 3 start-ups and at all of them I've worked long, grueling hours with the most recent one I was doing at least 65 hours a week (typically longer especially with a 3+ hour commute). I became severely burned out to the point where I didn't want to look for work or do much of anything. I was depressed and had severe anxiety. I went to the hospital with an anxiety attack so strong that I literally thought I was having a heart attack and was going to die in front of my two year old (I was trying to explain to her what to do if daddy passes out). My chest was in pain, my arm numb; I still don't understand how it wasn't a heart attack because of how intense it felt. I eventually took some time off and started interviewing at various places. Shortly after taking time off I was told that the founders felt I wasn't "working fast enough" and was fired. I had never been fired from a job before and I contest their reasoning but secretly felt incredible relief to the point where I barely even argued, I just packed up my stuff and left with a smile on my face. Now I'm working at a place with fantastic work life balance.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- nul_byte 9y ago
  This is why I am highly sceptical of start ups, and it would take a helluva a lot for someone to convince me to join another. I prefer big corps, as its possible to control you work load a little more and transfer internally if you get a bad boss.
  - sbarre 9y ago
    Yeah I don't think it's that simple. In my current job (team of 30) we work with lots of very large corps (telcos, finance, airlines, etc), and I've been exposed to the internal workings of their IT & dev teams, and in almost all cases I've seen intense mismanagement and high-stress environments. Imagine the stress that comes with figuring out new tech and solving new problems at the level of a startup, and then cross that with the financial stakes, entrenched processes and the management abstraction that exist in a large corporation, and you can see how big corps have their own versions of the same problem.. The combination of feeling like you're responsible for solving massive problems but have none of the ability to influence or determine how they will be solved is a terrible situation to be in.
    - defined 9y ago
      I will vouch for this. A large company in many cases behaves like $startup_dysfunctionality + $dysfunctionality_from_fast_post_startup_growth + $years_of_wild_hiring + $years_of_reorgs + $useless_and_obstructive_policies_and_standards
  - sotojuan 9y ago
    I work at a startup and leave after eight hours. They're not all bad.
    - secstate 9y ago
      Same here. The other day my supervisor caught me working late and told me to leave ;)
skrebbel 9y ago
I keep reading stories like these on HN, yet I don't know a single person who has experienced anything even remotely close to this. I don't live in the Bay Area. Are SV startups, in general, really this badly managed? If I add up all anecdata from reading HN comments about toxic work environments, I get the impression that 50% of the Valley is run like this. I have a hard time comprehending how this can happen.
- defined 9y ago
  I'm such a person, and it's not restricted to SV. My worst experiences were in the South East. I think that many startups, regardless of region, are poorly managed, especially as they go through the transition from startup to something bigger.
- BinaryIdiot 9y ago
  All of my experiences were on the East Coast. I don't think it's unique to the bay area I just think there is a larger concentration of start-ups so you'll hear about it more frequently but it can easily happen anywhere.
- dang 9y ago
  It's sample bias. People who experienced dramatic things are far more likely to comment about them. The community is large enough that even a relatively tiny sample produces many comments under this effect.
  - skrebbel 9y ago
    Thanks. I was hoping it was just this.
  - skypanther 9y ago
    Well, there's the stigma of talking about anything related to mental illness or depression. Personally, I've never shared any of my struggles with inner demons with anyone other than my wife (and now here).
    - 9y ago
awjr 9y ago
Contract I was on was hard. Never felt anything like that pressure and very much about setting you up to fail. In fact I think it was a case that the CTO specifically set you up to fail and try and put the blame on you suggesting you work for free to pull it up to standard. He was very keen on making you take 'ownership' and, hence by inference, the financial risk, despite constantly changing requirements. A number of contractors working there stated how they'd never experienced anything like it. It was phenomenally toxic. Arriving home after my last day, I hugged my daughter and broke down in tears. The relief was unbelievable.
dbg31415 9y ago
> It doesn't even take abusive bosses who don't like you, although that just makes it far worse. Far worse. I've worked at startups where we had to bust ass to get things done... mid-90s... sleeping at the office, going weeks without a paycheck to get the product to launch, living off Jolt and pizza -- and trying to build something that we honestly weren't sure could be built. And even if the work wasn't always done the exact way I would have suggested or agreed with, if I had a boss that took 5 minutes to explain why we were doing it... it was fine. No stress, just get it done. I've worked at places that didn't require anywhere near that level of focus or time commitment that left me feeling just drained and miserable. Miserable to the point of wanting to pack it up and never see a computer again. Miserable to the point of acting out... little self-destructive things like sending snarky emails, calling in sick to play hooky, or indulging in office gossip. All because I had a boss who just demanded I do things without giving any reason, or who wasn't consistent with their stories. Now I know enough, years of therapy / career coaching... and just age... when I see someone in a leadership position who just says, "Do what I say..." I start shopping for a new job. Or if they pull any manipulation crap like, "Sally and Mike know about X, but John thinks it's Y, and Sally can't know that Mike knows..." Or just simple lying... if they tell you something different than they tell anyone else. Life's too short to deal with those people. Transparency, integrity, honesty... without those things in a boss, it doesn't matter how much work there is to do -- it'll be very stressful. It took me 10+ years to really nail down why I was successful at some jobs and not at others... for me, it all came down to the sort of boss I had. Didn't have much to do with me liking the person (or the scope of the work), or vise versa, as long as they weren't Machiavellian we could work well together.
- pm90 9y ago
  While I can't possibly say that I know everything about your situations, one of the things that has worked very well when working with bosses I don't like is being 100% honest and trying to get to their concerns and trying to reach a reasonable agreement on management style. I get it that most of us programmers aren't inherently good at social skills, but its a skill that can be learned and has been incredibly useful for me. Of course if the boss is just a dickwad, that is a pretty clear indication for you to leave. But more often they are just clueless about good management practices and/or have no idea that they're alienating the team.
metaphorm 9y ago
the last job I quit was at a small company that went from having an autonomous, highly agile engineering team (of which I was an early member) to having 3 tiers of management overseeing an engineering team that had less people in it than the management hierarchy above it. the emotional corrosion that this causes can't be understated. bad management, even without explicit abuse, is a serious driver of burnout. burnout is a SERIOUS fucking condition and it should be acknowledged as a tier 1 health risk. people kill themselves because of it.
bpyne 9y ago
Years ago I worked for a hospital. I noticed that many nurses smoked while physicians (mostly) did not. They read the same studies on the effects of smoking and treated the same emphysema and lung cancer patients. Yet, the difference in behavior was there. A friend of mine was a psychologist who worked on smoking cessation so I related the phenomenon to her. Apparently, it's well-known that people in jobs with high responsibility and low decision-making authority tend toward smoking and other stress relievers. That description certainly fits nurses. Software developers tend to be in that position now. Organizations increasingly rely on software as the embodiment of their processes and gatekeeper of their information. Yet, we seem to be a leaf-node on the decision-making tree. The job I had prior to the hospital was a startup company in the Boston area, circa 1995. I was picked for a team of 8 or so to implement a system that was, in essence, an PaaS forerunner. (They put the senior-most people on the project, which was sad because I had only two years of professional experience as a developer. But, that's another matter.) For about 8 weeks, we worked between 60-80 hours trying to jam it in. During that time, one team member went to the hospital with chest pains while another had an outright heart attack. But, the company did reward us with a $100 American Express gift card for each team member. At some point, I keep hoping that organizations will start recognizing that we need to be used strategically: a voice in decisions on how to use technology. Frankly, organizations aren't getting full value for us until they do.
dba7dba 9y ago
I also was in a similar situation. Not as bad as the engineer in discussion but, I went through similar situation. Years ago, I started getting signals that my work was preparing to let me go, like putting me on Performance Enhancement Program, etc etc. The thing is I had not kept up with my skills and so I really couldn't find any work with similar pay I could switch to. I also decided to stay to do better work in order to prove the managers wrong. I wanted to prove the management wrong, that I'm someone worthy of employment. I wanted to prove to them that I am a person, not some disposable tool to be tossed aside. I now know it was a mistake. The stress at work kept building up in me for weeks. I woke up in middle of nights, and I am someone who sleeps like a brick. And it hit me. One morning, as I was stuck in a stop-and-go traffic on way to work on freeway, I went over the little section of freeway that allows you a full view of the long lines of cars packing the freeway. This view suddenly caused me panic attack and I began to feel claustrophobic. I felt the urge to take off my socks (and strip off shirt, which I didn't) and open the window (which I did) so that I could relieve the feeling of trapped in the car. I had never felt such sensation before. I believe the issue of claustrophobia went on for about 2 years, as I remember worrying about taking a flight to visit family. I never never had such issues before. I think I can understand why the engineer didn't leave for another job. With his experience, he could've have gotten another similar or better job, but I believe he wanted to prove the management wrong. But unfortunately the stress got to him first.
jondubois 9y ago
I agree that most managers aren't very bright. It's like in the movie "idiocracy" except with the added frustration that being intelligent doesn't get you noticed or promoted.

BinaryIdiot 9y ago

Well said. I've worked at 3 start-ups and at all of them I've worked long, grueling hours with the most recent one I was doing at least 65 hours a week (typically longer especially with a 3+ hour commute). I became severely burned out to the point where I didn't want to look for work or do much of anything. I was depressed and had severe anxiety. I went to the hospital with an anxiety attack so strong that I literally thought I was having a heart attack and was going to die in front of my two year old (I was trying to explain to her what to do if daddy passes out). My chest was in pain, my arm numb; I still don't understand how it wasn't a heart attack because of how intense it felt. I eventually took some time off and started interviewing at various places. Shortly after taking time off I was told that the founders felt I wasn't "working fast enough" and was fired. I had never been fired from a job before and I contest their reasoning but secretly felt incredible relief to the point where I barely even argued, I just packed up my stuff and left with a smile on my face. Now I'm working at a place with fantastic work life balance.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
nul_byte 9y ago
This is why I am highly sceptical of start ups, and it would take a helluva a lot for someone to convince me to join another. I prefer big corps, as its possible to control you work load a little more and transfer internally if you get a bad boss.
- sbarre 9y ago
  Yeah I don't think it's that simple. In my current job (team of 30) we work with lots of very large corps (telcos, finance, airlines, etc), and I've been exposed to the internal workings of their IT & dev teams, and in almost all cases I've seen intense mismanagement and high-stress environments. Imagine the stress that comes with figuring out new tech and solving new problems at the level of a startup, and then cross that with the financial stakes, entrenched processes and the management abstraction that exist in a large corporation, and you can see how big corps have their own versions of the same problem.. The combination of feeling like you're responsible for solving massive problems but have none of the ability to influence or determine how they will be solved is a terrible situation to be in.
  - defined 9y ago
    I will vouch for this. A large company in many cases behaves like $startup_dysfunctionality + $dysfunctionality_from_fast_post_startup_growth + $years_of_wild_hiring + $years_of_reorgs + $useless_and_obstructive_policies_and_standards
- sotojuan 9y ago
  I work at a startup and leave after eight hours. They're not all bad.
  - secstate 9y ago
    Same here. The other day my supervisor caught me working late and told me to leave ;)

skrebbel 9y ago

I keep reading stories like these on HN, yet I don't know a single person who has experienced anything even remotely close to this. I don't live in the Bay Area. Are SV startups, in general, really this badly managed? If I add up all anecdata from reading HN comments about toxic work environments, I get the impression that 50% of the Valley is run like this. I have a hard time comprehending how this can happen.

defined 9y ago
I'm such a person, and it's not restricted to SV. My worst experiences were in the South East. I think that many startups, regardless of region, are poorly managed, especially as they go through the transition from startup to something bigger.
BinaryIdiot 9y ago
All of my experiences were on the East Coast. I don't think it's unique to the bay area I just think there is a larger concentration of start-ups so you'll hear about it more frequently but it can easily happen anywhere.
dang 9y ago
It's sample bias. People who experienced dramatic things are far more likely to comment about them. The community is large enough that even a relatively tiny sample produces many comments under this effect.
- skrebbel 9y ago
  Thanks. I was hoping it was just this.
- skypanther 9y ago
  Well, there's the stigma of talking about anything related to mental illness or depression. Personally, I've never shared any of my struggles with inner demons with anyone other than my wife (and now here).
  - 9y ago

awjr 9y ago

Contract I was on was hard. Never felt anything like that pressure and very much about setting you up to fail. In fact I think it was a case that the CTO specifically set you up to fail and try and put the blame on you suggesting you work for free to pull it up to standard. He was very keen on making you take 'ownership' and, hence by inference, the financial risk, despite constantly changing requirements. A number of contractors working there stated how they'd never experienced anything like it. It was phenomenally toxic. Arriving home after my last day, I hugged my daughter and broke down in tears. The relief was unbelievable.

dbg31415 9y ago

> It doesn't even take abusive bosses who don't like you, although that just makes it far worse. Far worse. I've worked at startups where we had to bust ass to get things done... mid-90s... sleeping at the office, going weeks without a paycheck to get the product to launch, living off Jolt and pizza -- and trying to build something that we honestly weren't sure could be built. And even if the work wasn't always done the exact way I would have suggested or agreed with, if I had a boss that took 5 minutes to explain why we were doing it... it was fine. No stress, just get it done. I've worked at places that didn't require anywhere near that level of focus or time commitment that left me feeling just drained and miserable. Miserable to the point of wanting to pack it up and never see a computer again. Miserable to the point of acting out... little self-destructive things like sending snarky emails, calling in sick to play hooky, or indulging in office gossip. All because I had a boss who just demanded I do things without giving any reason, or who wasn't consistent with their stories. Now I know enough, years of therapy / career coaching... and just age... when I see someone in a leadership position who just says, "Do what I say..." I start shopping for a new job. Or if they pull any manipulation crap like, "Sally and Mike know about X, but John thinks it's Y, and Sally can't know that Mike knows..." Or just simple lying... if they tell you something different than they tell anyone else. Life's too short to deal with those people. Transparency, integrity, honesty... without those things in a boss, it doesn't matter how much work there is to do -- it'll be very stressful. It took me 10+ years to really nail down why I was successful at some jobs and not at others... for me, it all came down to the sort of boss I had. Didn't have much to do with me liking the person (or the scope of the work), or vise versa, as long as they weren't Machiavellian we could work well together.

pm90 9y ago
While I can't possibly say that I know everything about your situations, one of the things that has worked very well when working with bosses I don't like is being 100% honest and trying to get to their concerns and trying to reach a reasonable agreement on management style. I get it that most of us programmers aren't inherently good at social skills, but its a skill that can be learned and has been incredibly useful for me. Of course if the boss is just a dickwad, that is a pretty clear indication for you to leave. But more often they are just clueless about good management practices and/or have no idea that they're alienating the team.

metaphorm 9y ago

the last job I quit was at a small company that went from having an autonomous, highly agile engineering team (of which I was an early member) to having 3 tiers of management overseeing an engineering team that had less people in it than the management hierarchy above it. the emotional corrosion that this causes can't be understated. bad management, even without explicit abuse, is a serious driver of burnout. burnout is a SERIOUS fucking condition and it should be acknowledged as a tier 1 health risk. people kill themselves because of it.

bpyne 9y ago

Years ago I worked for a hospital. I noticed that many nurses smoked while physicians (mostly) did not. They read the same studies on the effects of smoking and treated the same emphysema and lung cancer patients. Yet, the difference in behavior was there. A friend of mine was a psychologist who worked on smoking cessation so I related the phenomenon to her. Apparently, it's well-known that people in jobs with high responsibility and low decision-making authority tend toward smoking and other stress relievers. That description certainly fits nurses. Software developers tend to be in that position now. Organizations increasingly rely on software as the embodiment of their processes and gatekeeper of their information. Yet, we seem to be a leaf-node on the decision-making tree. The job I had prior to the hospital was a startup company in the Boston area, circa 1995. I was picked for a team of 8 or so to implement a system that was, in essence, an PaaS forerunner. (They put the senior-most people on the project, which was sad because I had only two years of professional experience as a developer. But, that's another matter.) For about 8 weeks, we worked between 60-80 hours trying to jam it in. During that time, one team member went to the hospital with chest pains while another had an outright heart attack. But, the company did reward us with a $100 American Express gift card for each team member. At some point, I keep hoping that organizations will start recognizing that we need to be used strategically: a voice in decisions on how to use technology. Frankly, organizations aren't getting full value for us until they do.

dba7dba 9y ago

I also was in a similar situation. Not as bad as the engineer in discussion but, I went through similar situation. Years ago, I started getting signals that my work was preparing to let me go, like putting me on Performance Enhancement Program, etc etc. The thing is I had not kept up with my skills and so I really couldn't find any work with similar pay I could switch to. I also decided to stay to do better work in order to prove the managers wrong. I wanted to prove the management wrong, that I'm someone worthy of employment. I wanted to prove to them that I am a person, not some disposable tool to be tossed aside. I now know it was a mistake. The stress at work kept building up in me for weeks. I woke up in middle of nights, and I am someone who sleeps like a brick. And it hit me. One morning, as I was stuck in a stop-and-go traffic on way to work on freeway, I went over the little section of freeway that allows you a full view of the long lines of cars packing the freeway. This view suddenly caused me panic attack and I began to feel claustrophobic. I felt the urge to take off my socks (and strip off shirt, which I didn't) and open the window (which I did) so that I could relieve the feeling of trapped in the car. I had never felt such sensation before. I believe the issue of claustrophobia went on for about 2 years, as I remember worrying about taking a flight to visit family. I never never had such issues before. I think I can understand why the engineer didn't leave for another job. With his experience, he could've have gotten another similar or better job, but I believe he wanted to prove the management wrong. But unfortunately the stress got to him first.

jondubois 9y ago

I agree that most managers aren't very bright. It's like in the movie "idiocracy" except with the added frustration that being intelligent doesn't get you noticed or promoted.