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The final court document does not seem to conform to your argument. Section 13 for example, does conform to your points. It states that "By purporting to be a
by tynpeddler 9y ago
The final court document does not seem to conform to your argument. Section 13 for example, does conform to your points. It states that "By purporting to be able to perform engineering services or work, Jarlstrom engaged in the practice of engineering...".
However, section 14 is very different. It does not rely on his use of the title of engineer. Instead it states "By reviewing, critiquing, and altering an engineered ITE formula, and submitting the critique and calculations for his modified version of the ITE formula to members of the public for consideration and modification of Beaverton, Oregon's and "worldwide" traffic signals... Jarlstrom applied special knowledge of the mathematical, physical and engineering sciences to such create work as investigation, evaluation, and design in connection with public equipment, processes, and works. Jarlstrom thereby engaged in the practice of engineering under ORS 672.005(1)(b). (...) By engaging in the practice of engineering (specifically, traffic engineering) without registration, Jarlstrom violated ORS 672.020(1), and OAR 820-010-0730(3)(c) on a second occasion."
Section 14 never cites the use of the title "engineer" as relevant for violating ORS 672.020(1), only his engaging in the "practice of engineering." As a practical matter, they may not have brought legal action if he had not used the title, but they certainly believe the law states that disseminating his findings certainly count as "practicing engineering" and is illegal without certification.
Actually, I wonder if the court didn't misinterpret 672.005(1)(b). I've cited it below and it seems to rely on the work in question being used for the purpose of ensuring compliance.
672.005(1) states: "Practice of engineering" or "practice of professional engineering" means doing any of the following:
(b) Applying special knowledge of the mathematical, physical and engineering sciences to such professional services or creative work as consultation, investigation, testimony, evaluation, planning, design and services during construction, manufacture or fabrication for the purpose of ensuring compliance with specifications and design, in connection with any public or private utilities, structures, buildings, machines, equipment, processes, works or projects.
- anigbrowl 9y agoFor the last time, these are not separate issues and treating them as such is erroneous. Section 13 establishes the context in which the facts in section 14 were evaluated. I'm exhausted trying to explain this and frankly annoyed that I've wasted most of my afternoon trying to provide legal insight to people who refuse to listen to reason that contradicts their preconceptions. WHY do you think section 14 should be interpreted in isolation from section 13? Do you think that makes it like a new function or procedure in which all the scope rules are reset? Why are you ignoring 672.007? It's really frustrating that programmers seem to think that working with logical constructs makes them lawyers. Maybe you would take me more seriously if I charged you $250/hour?
- lstroud 9y agoWhile I understand your exhaustion, I wonder why they aren't suing companies providing certifications with 'Engineer' in the title. Say, Cisco Certified Engineer, MCSE, etc. It would seem that it would be a far more egregious violation to offer to certify someone as an engineer. Do they not go after the companies claiming to provide these resources as a service? I'm just wondering why it seems so selectively enforced.
- elevenfist 9y ago> While I understand your exhaustion, I wonder why they aren't suing companies providing certifications with 'Engineer' in the title. ... quoting from a comment above from someone who is on the same side of the argument as you are. "By reviewing, critiquing, and altering an engineered ITE formula, and submitting the critique and calculations for his modified version of the ITE formula to members of the public for consideration and modification of Beaverton, Oregon's and "worldwide" traffic signals" Seriously. what. the. fuck. is wrong with you.
- sctb 9y agoPlease comment civilly and substantively on HN or not at all. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- elevenfist 9y agoSorry, I can do better, just a bit tired of seeing shallow comments on hn.
- coupdejarnac 9y agoThis is another common misunderstanding. There is an "industrial exception" for engineers working under the umbrella of a corporation. From Texas engineer board code (I think other states are similar): § 1001.057. Employee of Private Corporation or Business Entity (a) This chapter shall not be construed to apply to the activities of a private corporation or other business entity, or the activities of the full-time employees or other personnel under the direct supervision and control of the business entity, on or in connection with: (1) reasonable modifications to existing buildings, facilities, or other fixtures to real property not accessible to the general public and which are owned, leased, or otherwise occupied by the entity; or (2) activities related only to the research, development, design, fabrication, production, assembly, integration, or service of products manufactured by the entity. [Sections (b) and (c) omitted for clarity] (d) For purposes of this section, “products manufactured by the entity” also includes computer software, firmware, hardware, semiconductor devices, and the production, exploration, and transportation of oil and gas and related products.” Meaning, engineers can perform engineering work for a company without being licensed.