6 ms·

The biblical rules you site are from the pre-Christ laws. They were laws that needed to be followed to save man from the wrath of God. Christians believe that J

The biblical rules you site are from the pre-Christ laws. They were laws that needed to be followed to save man from the wrath of God. Christians believe that Jesus died and therefore took the punishment of their sins away, and all they need to do now is believe in him. So it's not the same at all. As far as I understand the laws of the Koran are very much the laws Muslims must follow.

PhasmaFelis 9y ago
No, that's a post-Biblical rationalization. There's nothing in the Bible that specifically rescinds, say, the clothing laws, and some Christians still take the time to rationalize it away specifically, e.g. here: http://www.cgg.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.sr/CT/BQA/k/192/Should-Christian-Wear-Clothing-Mixed-Fibers-Leviticus-1919.htm http://www.cgg.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.sr/CT/BQA/k/... What people don't seem to get is that many, many theists do not choose to follow all the rules in their particular holy book. How many Christian churches now endorse gay marriage, for example? You may call this hypocrisy or, indeed, heresy if you like, but you need to understand that being a Muslim does not necessarily mean that a person, their family, or their religious community holds identical beliefs to Osama bin Laden. If you judge people based on stereotypes rather than words and actions, you will judge them incorrectly.
incompatible 9y ago
I had the impression that belief wasn't sufficient for a Christian and they still have to avoid sin. E.g., a gay Christian is supposed to abstain from sex.
- PhasmaFelis 9y ago
  I'm an Episcopalian Christian, and my church's priest recently married his long-time boyfriend, with the full support of the American Episcopal Church. I haven't asked him about his sex life, because that would be weird, but I have no reason to think it's anything but normal. You really can't stereotype the beliefs of one group of Christians (or Muslims) based on another group's. Edit: It's odd that I get upvoted for pointing out that many Christians are not bigots, and downvoted for saying the same thing about Muslims.
  - MichaelGG 9y ago
    But you can. Just like you can stereotype folks from SF being against Trump or pro gay-rights. See the study linked elsewhere in the thread. The majority of Muslims believe things that aren't acceptable by current Western standards (like having Sharia be the law).
    - PhasmaFelis 9y ago
      > But you can. Just like you can stereotype folks from SF being against Trump or pro gay-rights. Yes, my mistake. You can stereotype all Muslims as terrorists, just like you can stereotype all Christians as homophobes, or all atheists as sanctimonious jerks, or all black people as watermelon-loving gangsters. It's just, y'know, stupid and bigoted.
- MichaelGG 9y ago
  There is a ton of leeway in the New Testament writings to let people decide what it means. I particularly love the line "everything is permissible, but not every is beneficial". Paul's letters are more like "oh come on, do you really have to be so degenerate?" with no real teeth. Unless you curse the Spirit. Jesus says he fulfills the law, and despite saying not a stroke of the old law should differ, that's a loophole to drive a truck through (on the Sabbath nonetheless). Islam doesn't have the benefit of a second prophet coming along and saying "eh, it's all good".
  - incompatible 9y ago
    Islam has any number of prophets actually, including Jesus. But the view in Islam appears to be that Muhammad trumps all the others because he's the only one whose message hasn't been corrupted.
int_19h 9y ago
Most Christians believe that some of the Old Testament rules still apply, such as the prohibition on homosexuality or adultery. To explain why other rules (like the various dietary restrictions, or need to circumcise) do not apply, a rather arbitrary line is drawn between "moral" and "ritual" commandments. This is the position of all Orthodox and Catholic churches (Catholics complicate it further by claiming that the "moral" Old Testament commandments are valid because they constitute "natural law", discoverable through reason alone). Some Christians believe that none of the Old Testament applies, and only restrictions that can be derived entirely from the New Testament are still valid. This is fairly popular among the more liberal Protestant churches. Some Christians believe that all laws apply, and would like to see a theocratic state that is actively enforcing all the Old Testament laws and punishments: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Reconstructionism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Reconstructionism
- vixen99 9y ago
  And these Christians in your last example are a significant problem (or any problem) where and to whom?
  - selimthegrim 9y ago
    I'd like to introduce you to a two-bit politician called Ted Cruz.
deleted 9y ago
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PhasmaFelis 9y ago

No, that's a post-Biblical rationalization. There's nothing in the Bible that specifically rescinds, say, the clothing laws, and some Christians still take the time to rationalize it away specifically, e.g. here: http://www.cgg.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.sr/CT/BQA/k/192/Should-Christian-Wear-Clothing-Mixed-Fibers-Leviticus-1919.htm http://www.cgg.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.sr/CT/BQA/k/... What people don't seem to get is that many, many theists do not choose to follow all the rules in their particular holy book. How many Christian churches now endorse gay marriage, for example? You may call this hypocrisy or, indeed, heresy if you like, but you need to understand that being a Muslim does not necessarily mean that a person, their family, or their religious community holds identical beliefs to Osama bin Laden. If you judge people based on stereotypes rather than words and actions, you will judge them incorrectly.

incompatible 9y ago

I had the impression that belief wasn't sufficient for a Christian and they still have to avoid sin. E.g., a gay Christian is supposed to abstain from sex.

PhasmaFelis 9y ago
I'm an Episcopalian Christian, and my church's priest recently married his long-time boyfriend, with the full support of the American Episcopal Church. I haven't asked him about his sex life, because that would be weird, but I have no reason to think it's anything but normal. You really can't stereotype the beliefs of one group of Christians (or Muslims) based on another group's. Edit: It's odd that I get upvoted for pointing out that many Christians are not bigots, and downvoted for saying the same thing about Muslims.
- MichaelGG 9y ago
  But you can. Just like you can stereotype folks from SF being against Trump or pro gay-rights. See the study linked elsewhere in the thread. The majority of Muslims believe things that aren't acceptable by current Western standards (like having Sharia be the law).
  - PhasmaFelis 9y ago
    > But you can. Just like you can stereotype folks from SF being against Trump or pro gay-rights. Yes, my mistake. You can stereotype all Muslims as terrorists, just like you can stereotype all Christians as homophobes, or all atheists as sanctimonious jerks, or all black people as watermelon-loving gangsters. It's just, y'know, stupid and bigoted.
MichaelGG 9y ago
There is a ton of leeway in the New Testament writings to let people decide what it means. I particularly love the line "everything is permissible, but not every is beneficial". Paul's letters are more like "oh come on, do you really have to be so degenerate?" with no real teeth. Unless you curse the Spirit. Jesus says he fulfills the law, and despite saying not a stroke of the old law should differ, that's a loophole to drive a truck through (on the Sabbath nonetheless). Islam doesn't have the benefit of a second prophet coming along and saying "eh, it's all good".
- incompatible 9y ago
  Islam has any number of prophets actually, including Jesus. But the view in Islam appears to be that Muhammad trumps all the others because he's the only one whose message hasn't been corrupted.

int_19h 9y ago

Most Christians believe that some of the Old Testament rules still apply, such as the prohibition on homosexuality or adultery. To explain why other rules (like the various dietary restrictions, or need to circumcise) do not apply, a rather arbitrary line is drawn between "moral" and "ritual" commandments. This is the position of all Orthodox and Catholic churches (Catholics complicate it further by claiming that the "moral" Old Testament commandments are valid because they constitute "natural law", discoverable through reason alone). Some Christians believe that none of the Old Testament applies, and only restrictions that can be derived entirely from the New Testament are still valid. This is fairly popular among the more liberal Protestant churches. Some Christians believe that all laws apply, and would like to see a theocratic state that is actively enforcing all the Old Testament laws and punishments: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Reconstructionism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Reconstructionism

vixen99 9y ago
And these Christians in your last example are a significant problem (or any problem) where and to whom?
- selimthegrim 9y ago
  I'd like to introduce you to a two-bit politician called Ted Cruz.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]