4 ms·

Because they're devout Muslims who favour the mainstream interpretation of Islamic theology, which includes punishment for blasphemy and capital punishment for

Because they're devout Muslims who favour the mainstream interpretation of Islamic theology, which includes punishment for blasphemy and capital punishment for apostasy. If these were American Scientologists torturing people for blasphemy and murdering people for leaving their cult, no-one would hesitate to point the finger at their religion as the problem.

Cyph0n 10y ago
> Because they're devout Muslims who favour the mainstream interpretation of Islamic theology I'm a Muslim and this is the first time I hear that this is the "mainstream" position. Do you have any reasonable sources for that claim?
- duncan_bayne 10y ago
  Why yes, I do: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy_law https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy_law ... And more specifically: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_blasphemy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_blasphemy Blasphemy is punishable in the vast majority of Islamic countries. Most Muslims worldwide support these laws, and most schools of Islamic jurisprudence support their position in Islamic law. It's probably not true of most Muslims in Western countries however. I have a sneaking suspicion - but no way of proving it - that people who think this sort of thing is nuts are more likely to want to emigrate to countries without it. Note that blasphemy is also punishable in many Western countries. This is driven by the same problem: religion. Usually Christianity.
  - SamReidHughes 10y ago
    Most Americans support a ban on flag-burning too.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - chroma 10y ago
      It's unclear if that's still true or not. The most recent good data is a Gallup poll from 2006.[1] When asked if the constitution should be amended (the only way such a ban could exist), support was at 54%. Also, support was higher in the 90's. If trends have continued, supporters should be in the minority today. Also, it's a bit rich to compare a nonexistent flag burning ban (which would punish with fines or jail) to Pakistan's very-much-existent blasphemy laws (which execute people). 1. http://www.gallup.com/poll/23524/public-support-constitutional-amendment-flag-burning.aspx http://www.gallup.com/poll/23524/public-support-constitution...
  - Cyph0n 10y ago
    The verse that entire Wikipedia page centers on is referring to a particular incident that occurred to the Prophet[1]. Furthermore, the verse is not referring to blasphemers in any way. It's important to note that a large portion of verses in the Quran were revealed to the Prophet in response to a particular event that took place during his lifetime. Tafsir (exegesis) is the subfield of Islamic science that deals with figuring out the context of a particular verse. [1] Explanation of that verse (5:33): http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=2&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=5&tAyahNo=33&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2 http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=2&tTafsirNo=73&t...
    - int_19h 10y ago
      It's also important to note that such interpretation is subjective, and there are different schools of thought within Islam, that ascribe different contexts (and, consequently, different scopes) to the verses. Also, the mainstream consensus changes over time - there has been a fairly long period, for example, during which the Sword Verse was interpreted to imply that the Caliph does have the authority (and in some madhabs, the obligation) to wage offensive war against unbelievers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_of_Islamic_scholars_on_Jihad#Permission_for_warfare_according_to_Islamic_jurists https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_of_Islamic_scholars_on...
    - duncan_bayne 10y ago
      Yes. As with people arguing about the interpretation of other religious texts, though, the main issue is: what do the _majority_ of followers of the religion believe? Or, perhaps: do _enough_ followers of the religion believe the problematic interpretation? Had Al-Ghazali been less successful in his reactionary unwinding of the Islamic world's enlightenment, we'd probably be having a very different conversation now.
- MichaelGG 10y ago
  The most mentioned study on this topic that I've seen is: http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/ http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religi... Multiply the percentages out and it does not paint a favourable picture of the actual interpretation of Islam, as believed by most users. It's odd that you're downvoted. It'd appear that most of the people in those countries would agree with your statement exactly. They are devout, and that is literally what they believe.
  - Cyph0n 10y ago
    That's quite surprising actually. Given my own experience, I would have likely doubted these results had they not been published by Pew (or Gallup).
    - azernik 10y ago
      In what country do you live, and in which Muslim community do you practice? I would imagine that these views vary widely by culture, school, and region.
      - Cyph0n 10y ago
        The Muslim countries I've lived in are Tunisia (origin country) and the UAE.
    - duncan_bayne 10y ago
      I was surprised, too. My gut feel is that most Muslim people I've known _would_ be surprised, because they don't espouse such beliefs themselves, and they're not common among Muslim communities in the West.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- PhasmaFelis 10y ago
  Unfortunately a lot of people figure that reading a few critical articles means they know more about something than its actual practitioners, which is why you're, bafflingly, being downvoted. As a Christian, I've had non-Christians actually get angry at me for not being a bigot, and as a feminist I've had non-feminists tell me that I'm "supposed to" hate myself and all men. Some people get really uncomfortable when others don't fit into their tidy labels.
  - chroma 10y ago
    Most of us live in our own little bubbles of like-minded people, so I trust Pew polls far more than anecdotes. I also trust polls more than my own experience. If someone cites Pew saying 30% of Americans are young-earth creationists[1], I'd never consider responding with, "I'm an American and I know a lot of Americans and none of them believe that." I'd simply verify the data and accept it. 1. http://www.pewforum.org/2013/12/30/publics-views-on-human-evolution/ http://www.pewforum.org/2013/12/30/publics-views-on-human-ev...
    - duncan_bayne 10y ago
      Reminds me of the (probably urban legend) story of a Hollywood celebrity remarking on Nixon's election: "But I don't know anyone who voted for Nixon!"
politicalthrow 10y ago
I got curious about whether these were mainstream beliefs with muslims. Muslim culture is so varied as it's very large. Here's a breakdown: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/02/27/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/02/27/muslims-and-... The parent is correct in that most muslims, broken down by country, do support sharia law when surveyed. Edited because I was wrong about numbers.
- mythrwy 10y ago
  What do you mean #1? Christianity has a lot more adherents (numbers wise) than Islam.
  - politicalthrow 10y ago
    My mistake - it's just the fastest growing and the #2 religion.
- duncan_bayne 10y ago
  The only caveat to that I'd add is that the numbers are probably a bit inflated, given they're being often being polled in countries where apostasy is punishable by death. I'd be a mite careful how I answered polls on religious beliefs in those places.
blacksmith_tb 10y ago
Well, yes and no. While Shariah is generally in line with your description, there are plenty of Muslim countries that have secular law - though they may still have blasphemy and/or apostasy laws on the books. And there are theoretically Christian countries with blasphemy laws, too[1] 1: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/29/which-countries-still-outlaw-apostasy-and-blasphemy/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/29/which-countr...

Cyph0n 10y ago

> Because they're devout Muslims who favour the mainstream interpretation of Islamic theology I'm a Muslim and this is the first time I hear that this is the "mainstream" position. Do you have any reasonable sources for that claim?

duncan_bayne 10y ago
Why yes, I do: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy_law https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy_law ... And more specifically: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_blasphemy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_blasphemy Blasphemy is punishable in the vast majority of Islamic countries. Most Muslims worldwide support these laws, and most schools of Islamic jurisprudence support their position in Islamic law. It's probably not true of most Muslims in Western countries however. I have a sneaking suspicion - but no way of proving it - that people who think this sort of thing is nuts are more likely to want to emigrate to countries without it. Note that blasphemy is also punishable in many Western countries. This is driven by the same problem: religion. Usually Christianity.
- SamReidHughes 10y ago
  Most Americans support a ban on flag-burning too.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - chroma 10y ago
    It's unclear if that's still true or not. The most recent good data is a Gallup poll from 2006.[1] When asked if the constitution should be amended (the only way such a ban could exist), support was at 54%. Also, support was higher in the 90's. If trends have continued, supporters should be in the minority today. Also, it's a bit rich to compare a nonexistent flag burning ban (which would punish with fines or jail) to Pakistan's very-much-existent blasphemy laws (which execute people). 1. http://www.gallup.com/poll/23524/public-support-constitutional-amendment-flag-burning.aspx http://www.gallup.com/poll/23524/public-support-constitution...
- Cyph0n 10y ago
  The verse that entire Wikipedia page centers on is referring to a particular incident that occurred to the Prophet[1]. Furthermore, the verse is not referring to blasphemers in any way. It's important to note that a large portion of verses in the Quran were revealed to the Prophet in response to a particular event that took place during his lifetime. Tafsir (exegesis) is the subfield of Islamic science that deals with figuring out the context of a particular verse. [1] Explanation of that verse (5:33): http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=2&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=5&tAyahNo=33&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2 http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=2&tTafsirNo=73&t...
  - int_19h 10y ago
    It's also important to note that such interpretation is subjective, and there are different schools of thought within Islam, that ascribe different contexts (and, consequently, different scopes) to the verses. Also, the mainstream consensus changes over time - there has been a fairly long period, for example, during which the Sword Verse was interpreted to imply that the Caliph does have the authority (and in some madhabs, the obligation) to wage offensive war against unbelievers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_of_Islamic_scholars_on_Jihad#Permission_for_warfare_according_to_Islamic_jurists https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_of_Islamic_scholars_on...
  - duncan_bayne 10y ago
    Yes. As with people arguing about the interpretation of other religious texts, though, the main issue is: what do the _majority_ of followers of the religion believe? Or, perhaps: do _enough_ followers of the religion believe the problematic interpretation? Had Al-Ghazali been less successful in his reactionary unwinding of the Islamic world's enlightenment, we'd probably be having a very different conversation now.
MichaelGG 10y ago
The most mentioned study on this topic that I've seen is: http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/ http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religi... Multiply the percentages out and it does not paint a favourable picture of the actual interpretation of Islam, as believed by most users. It's odd that you're downvoted. It'd appear that most of the people in those countries would agree with your statement exactly. They are devout, and that is literally what they believe.
- Cyph0n 10y ago
  That's quite surprising actually. Given my own experience, I would have likely doubted these results had they not been published by Pew (or Gallup).
  - azernik 10y ago
    In what country do you live, and in which Muslim community do you practice? I would imagine that these views vary widely by culture, school, and region.
    - Cyph0n 10y ago
      The Muslim countries I've lived in are Tunisia (origin country) and the UAE.
  - duncan_bayne 10y ago
    I was surprised, too. My gut feel is that most Muslim people I've known _would_ be surprised, because they don't espouse such beliefs themselves, and they're not common among Muslim communities in the West.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
PhasmaFelis 10y ago
Unfortunately a lot of people figure that reading a few critical articles means they know more about something than its actual practitioners, which is why you're, bafflingly, being downvoted. As a Christian, I've had non-Christians actually get angry at me for not being a bigot, and as a feminist I've had non-feminists tell me that I'm "supposed to" hate myself and all men. Some people get really uncomfortable when others don't fit into their tidy labels.
- chroma 10y ago
  Most of us live in our own little bubbles of like-minded people, so I trust Pew polls far more than anecdotes. I also trust polls more than my own experience. If someone cites Pew saying 30% of Americans are young-earth creationists[1], I'd never consider responding with, "I'm an American and I know a lot of Americans and none of them believe that." I'd simply verify the data and accept it. 1. http://www.pewforum.org/2013/12/30/publics-views-on-human-evolution/ http://www.pewforum.org/2013/12/30/publics-views-on-human-ev...
  - duncan_bayne 10y ago
    Reminds me of the (probably urban legend) story of a Hollywood celebrity remarking on Nixon's election: "But I don't know anyone who voted for Nixon!"

politicalthrow 10y ago

I got curious about whether these were mainstream beliefs with muslims. Muslim culture is so varied as it's very large. Here's a breakdown: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/02/27/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/02/27/muslims-and-... The parent is correct in that most muslims, broken down by country, do support sharia law when surveyed. Edited because I was wrong about numbers.

mythrwy 10y ago
What do you mean #1? Christianity has a lot more adherents (numbers wise) than Islam.
- politicalthrow 10y ago
  My mistake - it's just the fastest growing and the #2 religion.
duncan_bayne 10y ago
The only caveat to that I'd add is that the numbers are probably a bit inflated, given they're being often being polled in countries where apostasy is punishable by death. I'd be a mite careful how I answered polls on religious beliefs in those places.

blacksmith_tb 10y ago

Well, yes and no. While Shariah is generally in line with your description, there are plenty of Muslim countries that have secular law - though they may still have blasphemy and/or apostasy laws on the books. And there are theoretically Christian countries with blasphemy laws, too[1] 1: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/29/which-countries-still-outlaw-apostasy-and-blasphemy/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/29/which-countr...