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> In another, Imelda Marcos, the former first lady of the Philippines accused of stealing billions from state coffers, sits in her Manila apartment beneath a go

> In another, Imelda Marcos, the former first lady of the Philippines accused of stealing billions from state coffers, sits in her Manila apartment beneath a gold-framed Picasso Everytime I read something like this, I feel ill. What drives human beings to this level of greed and excess? Is there some primitive or primate instinct in all of us? Meanwhile, the beggar children in India don't even have a shirt on their back. True story: When I went back to India for the very 1st time after coming to America, I saw a shirtless kid on a train station begging for food. I opened my suitcase and gave him 1 of my oversized (for him) shirt. The look on his face was priceless. What drives so many people throughout history over 100s of years to hoard stuff and waste (mostly) ill-acquired wealth?? Is there something in-grained in us, that we can't resist it?? Still searching for an explanation.

self-diversity 10y ago
What in particular makes you feel ill about this? What is the strong emotion that affects you so upon reading of the wealth of a person you will never meet? Normally when people say this, their tone makes it evident they are envious, but that's missing here and I'm curious.
- iza 10y ago
  There is no moral justification for accumulating more wealth than you and your family can spend in a lifetime. The only way to amass such an amount is by exploiting the labour of others. The extremely wealthy are a net drain on society.
  - wufufufu 10y ago
    I often wonder what would happen if there existed a public, self-updating list of every person on earth and their respective net worth.
- haasted 10y ago
  Sounds like it's because he has seen the polar opposite, and is frustrated that the resources Marcos is spending on gold-framed Picassos and shoes are not used to improve the existence of the vast number of poor people in the region.
- justboxing 10y ago
  I'm not envious. I want to understand why such wealthy people wouldn't spend the money improving the lives of other human beings, and instead waste it on overprices sh*t like a $12,000 Hermes bag. I grew up in India and the wealth disparity couldn't be any starker. I feel that if I was ever that wealthy, I would spend a lot of it trying to improve the lives of poor people and homeless people, instead of buying 4000 shoes or a 100 Hermes bags. I know from close contact with Filipino Boxers, how broke and poor a large population of their country is. Meanwhile their President is stealing from her people and hoarding 4000+ shoes, when she can only wear 1 pair at a time :) So I really want to know, is there some very primate (and hence hard to control) instinct in all human beings, which causes them to hoard useless stuff instead of using their wealth for 'greater causes'?
  - athenot 10y ago
    I would attribute that to a desire to raise oneself up at the expense of the others, stemming from basic lack of empathy and belief in superiority. This is often justified through societal constructs (economy, profession, race, caste…) PS: cool boxing site! :)
  - ispolin 10y ago
    One way to answer that might be to look inside ourselves. Take me for example. I indulge myself with books, songs, apps, etc. Granted, it's on a completely different financial scale than Hermes bags, but I own more things than I can realistically consume. So let's call whatever I buy but can't consume "excess". Whatever instinct causes me to buy stuff in excess instead of using that excess to help the poor more than I currently do is likely the same instinct that causes the rich to buy 4000 shoes and 100 Hermes bags instead of helping the poor more. I don't introspect enough to know what that instinct is, but most of us here probably have similar very minor excesses in our lives and can get some clues by thinking about those.
  - charlesdm 10y ago
    The same reason people just don't care about everyone in the world and everything that happens around them. For example: as a European, I am aware that both poverty in Africa and the war in Syria is an issue, but frankly and like many other people, it's not something I lose much sleep over. That doesn't mean I wouldn't help if I could (e.g. by donating money), but given these things are happening not that close to home, I accept them as a fact of life. The west isn't in a position to solve many of the issues in developing nations. Also, just because someone is wealthy doesn't necessarily make them happy. There are plenty of unhappy wealthy people. Wealth often makes you lose your way in life, and for some it can be more of a curse than a blessing. Wealth aside, some people just don't care much for others. But on the flipside there are also plenty of amazing wealthy (and less wealthy) people that will go out of their way to help others. Wealth accumulation doesn't come with a social contract that you have to try and fix social issues in society. Some people will, others won't. I don't see any issues with that. This all said, obviously stealing is never acceptable. But I could understand how someone would own 4000 pairs of shoes, if they're compensating for say a loveless marriage, or some sort of emptiness in life.
- huehehue 10y ago
  Ironic that you're being downvoted for prompting half the discussion in this thread (at present). I'm curious about this, too. Sibling comments are asking why any person or company would hoard that money when they could be donating it. A company I know just spent over a $1M USD on a domain name and got a lot of hate for it -- many complaints that the money could have been donated instead. For reference, I grew up dirt poor, and still work insane hours every day in a continual effort to dig myself out of a pit I never asked to be in. And I still don't think it's fair to criticize how private entities spend their own money. I absolutely understand leveling the playing field, and using a position of privilege to benefit society. But if I get rich and blow my fortune on luxury goods so what?
  - justboxing 10y ago
    > But if I get rich and blow my fortune on luxury goods so what? This. Exactly. What prompted you to say this? Do you think if you do get filthy rich, you will follow through on blowing your forture on luxury goods? If so, what prompted you to feel this urge??
- svieira 10y ago
  Not the poster, but for my part, the reason I find this kind of behavior revolting is that it is clear to me that material goods are intended for all; though men have a right to private property, that right is not to all property, but to sufficient property to provide for their needs and their state in life, and all else kept after that is waste. > Moreover, the earth, even though apportioned among private owners, ceases not thereby to minister to the needs of all, inasmuch as there is not one who does not sustain life from what the land produces. > When what necessity demands has been supplied, and one's standing fairly taken thought for, it becomes a duty to give to the indigent out of what remains over. http://w2.vatican.va/content/leo-xiii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_15051891_rerum-novarum.html http://w2.vatican.va/content/leo-xiii/en/encyclicals/documen...
- pjc50 10y ago
  It's dysfunctional, like a human version of the "paperclip maximizer" AI: https://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Paperclip_maximizer https://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Paperclip_maximizer Musk with his personal space programme at least makes "sense" of some sort. Imelda bought more shoes than she could wear in a lifetime: that's dysfunctional. And it came with a real human cost. How many human QALYs did that collection cost the Philipines? Or, more personally, how many dead children is a Picasso worth?
- ImSkeptical 10y ago
  To me it seems deeply shameful and embarrassing that these people can't think of a better use for their money. You could spend your fortune building something, starting a business, patronizing public works or artistic projects, funding scientific or medical research, or helping innumerable worthy charities. Instead, these people spend their money buying fancy labels and useless things. Their inability to use their money well is contemptible and unfortunate.
- metaphorm 10y ago
  accusing other people of envy is some seriously weaselly argumentation that seems designed to deflect away from real, rational, and salient criticisms about economic injustice
  - antisthenes 10y ago
    What's wrong with justified envy anyway? Why is it ok to normalize 1 instinctual response (greed) but not the other (envy) ?
    - metaphorm 10y ago
      who's normalizing? Greed is understood as a "sin" (religious framework) or "vice" (secular framework) or "pathology" (psychological framework). Same with envy.
- zardo 10y ago
  >What is the strong emotion that affects you so upon reading of the wealth of a person you will never meet? That wasn't just a description of wealth, it was a description of a crime, and the extravagant purchases of the criminal. Disgust is the emotion in question. It reminds me of a cat I had that would just keep eating till it puked, then eat the puke. Only the cat wasn't stealing the food, so it wasn't quite so gross as Imelda.
- ionised 10y ago
  Did you miss the part about stealing billions from state coffers? How would you not feel disgusted by that?
jasonkostempski 10y ago
It's not like that money disappears, it just traded hands. Whoever sold the painting might use some of it for charity.
- tonyedgecombe 10y ago
  I'm not convinced it's as benign as that. Less equal societies tend to be less happy, at the top and the bottom as you can see in the article.
tonyedgecombe 10y ago
Hoarding during scarcity is quite a sensible strategy, you want to get through the winter season or drought. What we don't seem able to do is turn that off in an environment of abundance. We can't seem to get past that evolutionary adaptation and it isn't doing us any good.
- jondubois 10y ago
  Some people are genetically greedier than others and greedier people are much more likely to get into positions of power. To make matters worse, people tend to like people who are like them. So greedy people help other greedy people. This means that power and money becomes concentrated in the hands of the greedy.
  - monster_group 10y ago
    "Some people are genetically greedier..." That's a pretty bold claim that I am coming across for the first time. I did not know greed has its roots in genetics. Can you cite some references? I would love to read more about this.
    - pseudonom- 10y ago
      Finding 1 here: https://www.gwern.net/docs/genetics/2016-plomin.pdf https://www.gwern.net/docs/genetics/2016-plomin.pdf > All psychological traits show significant and substantial genetic influence
  - cryptica 10y ago
    Well, we're made up of DNA. Scientists unanimously agree that DNA is responsible for all of our characteristics. If you search the internet, you should be able to find plenty of papers and evidence which document the effects of specific genes on personality. Recently, I watched a lecture about a specific gene nicknamed the "Warrior gene" - Scientists found that people who carried this gene were more likely to become serial killers. I would argue that the presence of this "warrior gene" would be strongly correlated with greed. Police officers will tell you that the serial killer mindset is about low empathy combined with a desire for power over other people - That sounds like a pretty good recipe for greed too. I wouldn't be surprised if there were other genes that played a part in this personality trait we call greed. Having a materialist view of the world, I think it's pretty safe to say that everything which differentiates us from non-living objects can be attributed to chemical reactions which trace back to DNA itself. The cultural/environmental aspects of greed are merely feedback loops that are rooted in the genetics of the members of any given group/culture.
carsongross 10y ago
Don't get ill. Sin brings its own punishment along with it. Ask me how I know.
- tsunamifury 10y ago
  how do you know? (out of real interest)
polymeris 10y ago
> Is there some primitive or primate instinct in all of us? I think so. An instinct exacerbated by marketing. Most of us who aren't wealthy also spend a decent chunk of our incomes on unnecessary things. They might not be luxuries as extravagant as the ones described in the article, but they would still pay for plenty of shirts in India -- or my country. Why do we do this? Why do we eat at restaurants, go on vacations abroad or buy nice clothes instead of spending that money in a humanitarian way? After that, it's just a matter of scale and of getting used to a lifestyle that includes 100s of ugly bags and tackily framed works of art.
- rhcom2 10y ago
  A little different with that specific example though because the Marcos were criminals that stole billions.
smallgovt 10y ago
I think the reason comes down to differences in values. Values are the measuring sticks by which people quantify success in life. Whether or not we realize it, we constantly measure our actions against our values, and how we 'measure up' determines our self-worth. If I had to guess, kindness and compassion are core to your values. As a result, when you see a greedy person, you feel disgust because you would feel worthless if you were in their shoes acting in such an unkind/selfish manner. For better or worse, not everyone holds the same values. For example, some people value 'winning'. Individuals who value 'winning' want to be the best no matter what. There are many ways to measure the value of 'winning', but money/material possessions is one scoreboard/metric. If they accumulate more of it, they feel more self-worth. Why do people hold less 'wholesome' value sets? Are certain values less worthy of others? Should we pass judgement on people who hold conflicting values? These are interesting questions. On the topic of 'why', I'd expect environment plays a major factor. If you're brought up in an isolated bubble of wealthy individuals, it's quite easy to imagine how one would grow a value attachment to the associated luxuries. Personally, I don't think there's inherent value in anything. As a result, no one value is 'truly' better than another. However, some values drive actions that harm other people, and those are worth passing judgement from a utilitarian standpoint.
- whack 10y ago
  > "Personally, it's hard for me judge other value sets because I see so much dissonance and irrationality in value norms, and I'd end up passing judgment on most people. My current belief is that there's no real inherent value in anything. As a result, no one value is truly better than another. I've found that this perspective makes me more understanding and tolerant of other people whom I previously would have been repelled by." Most of your post was pretty well thought out, but you're likely getting downvoted because this last part just sounds strange, and intellectually lazy to boot. By the reasoning above, any behavior, including murder and rape, can be justified. "They just happen to have different values. Who am I to judge them?" I agree that it's hard to judge the relative merits of different values, but just because it's hard doesn't mean we should give up and call it a day.
  - 10y ago

self-diversity 10y ago

What in particular makes you feel ill about this? What is the strong emotion that affects you so upon reading of the wealth of a person you will never meet? Normally when people say this, their tone makes it evident they are envious, but that's missing here and I'm curious.

iza 10y ago
There is no moral justification for accumulating more wealth than you and your family can spend in a lifetime. The only way to amass such an amount is by exploiting the labour of others. The extremely wealthy are a net drain on society.
- wufufufu 10y ago
  I often wonder what would happen if there existed a public, self-updating list of every person on earth and their respective net worth.
haasted 10y ago
Sounds like it's because he has seen the polar opposite, and is frustrated that the resources Marcos is spending on gold-framed Picassos and shoes are not used to improve the existence of the vast number of poor people in the region.
justboxing 10y ago
I'm not envious. I want to understand why such wealthy people wouldn't spend the money improving the lives of other human beings, and instead waste it on overprices sh*t like a $12,000 Hermes bag. I grew up in India and the wealth disparity couldn't be any starker. I feel that if I was ever that wealthy, I would spend a lot of it trying to improve the lives of poor people and homeless people, instead of buying 4000 shoes or a 100 Hermes bags. I know from close contact with Filipino Boxers, how broke and poor a large population of their country is. Meanwhile their President is stealing from her people and hoarding 4000+ shoes, when she can only wear 1 pair at a time :) So I really want to know, is there some very primate (and hence hard to control) instinct in all human beings, which causes them to hoard useless stuff instead of using their wealth for 'greater causes'?
- athenot 10y ago
  I would attribute that to a desire to raise oneself up at the expense of the others, stemming from basic lack of empathy and belief in superiority. This is often justified through societal constructs (economy, profession, race, caste…) PS: cool boxing site! :)
- ispolin 10y ago
  One way to answer that might be to look inside ourselves. Take me for example. I indulge myself with books, songs, apps, etc. Granted, it's on a completely different financial scale than Hermes bags, but I own more things than I can realistically consume. So let's call whatever I buy but can't consume "excess". Whatever instinct causes me to buy stuff in excess instead of using that excess to help the poor more than I currently do is likely the same instinct that causes the rich to buy 4000 shoes and 100 Hermes bags instead of helping the poor more. I don't introspect enough to know what that instinct is, but most of us here probably have similar very minor excesses in our lives and can get some clues by thinking about those.
- charlesdm 10y ago
  The same reason people just don't care about everyone in the world and everything that happens around them. For example: as a European, I am aware that both poverty in Africa and the war in Syria is an issue, but frankly and like many other people, it's not something I lose much sleep over. That doesn't mean I wouldn't help if I could (e.g. by donating money), but given these things are happening not that close to home, I accept them as a fact of life. The west isn't in a position to solve many of the issues in developing nations. Also, just because someone is wealthy doesn't necessarily make them happy. There are plenty of unhappy wealthy people. Wealth often makes you lose your way in life, and for some it can be more of a curse than a blessing. Wealth aside, some people just don't care much for others. But on the flipside there are also plenty of amazing wealthy (and less wealthy) people that will go out of their way to help others. Wealth accumulation doesn't come with a social contract that you have to try and fix social issues in society. Some people will, others won't. I don't see any issues with that. This all said, obviously stealing is never acceptable. But I could understand how someone would own 4000 pairs of shoes, if they're compensating for say a loveless marriage, or some sort of emptiness in life.
huehehue 10y ago
Ironic that you're being downvoted for prompting half the discussion in this thread (at present). I'm curious about this, too. Sibling comments are asking why any person or company would hoard that money when they could be donating it. A company I know just spent over a $1M USD on a domain name and got a lot of hate for it -- many complaints that the money could have been donated instead. For reference, I grew up dirt poor, and still work insane hours every day in a continual effort to dig myself out of a pit I never asked to be in. And I still don't think it's fair to criticize how private entities spend their own money. I absolutely understand leveling the playing field, and using a position of privilege to benefit society. But if I get rich and blow my fortune on luxury goods so what?
- justboxing 10y ago
  > But if I get rich and blow my fortune on luxury goods so what? This. Exactly. What prompted you to say this? Do you think if you do get filthy rich, you will follow through on blowing your forture on luxury goods? If so, what prompted you to feel this urge??
svieira 10y ago
Not the poster, but for my part, the reason I find this kind of behavior revolting is that it is clear to me that material goods are intended for all; though men have a right to private property, that right is not to all property, but to sufficient property to provide for their needs and their state in life, and all else kept after that is waste. > Moreover, the earth, even though apportioned among private owners, ceases not thereby to minister to the needs of all, inasmuch as there is not one who does not sustain life from what the land produces. > When what necessity demands has been supplied, and one's standing fairly taken thought for, it becomes a duty to give to the indigent out of what remains over. http://w2.vatican.va/content/leo-xiii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_15051891_rerum-novarum.html http://w2.vatican.va/content/leo-xiii/en/encyclicals/documen...
pjc50 10y ago
It's dysfunctional, like a human version of the "paperclip maximizer" AI: https://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Paperclip_maximizer https://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Paperclip_maximizer Musk with his personal space programme at least makes "sense" of some sort. Imelda bought more shoes than she could wear in a lifetime: that's dysfunctional. And it came with a real human cost. How many human QALYs did that collection cost the Philipines? Or, more personally, how many dead children is a Picasso worth?
ImSkeptical 10y ago
To me it seems deeply shameful and embarrassing that these people can't think of a better use for their money. You could spend your fortune building something, starting a business, patronizing public works or artistic projects, funding scientific or medical research, or helping innumerable worthy charities. Instead, these people spend their money buying fancy labels and useless things. Their inability to use their money well is contemptible and unfortunate.
metaphorm 10y ago
accusing other people of envy is some seriously weaselly argumentation that seems designed to deflect away from real, rational, and salient criticisms about economic injustice
- antisthenes 10y ago
  What's wrong with justified envy anyway? Why is it ok to normalize 1 instinctual response (greed) but not the other (envy) ?
  - metaphorm 10y ago
    who's normalizing? Greed is understood as a "sin" (religious framework) or "vice" (secular framework) or "pathology" (psychological framework). Same with envy.
zardo 10y ago
>What is the strong emotion that affects you so upon reading of the wealth of a person you will never meet? That wasn't just a description of wealth, it was a description of a crime, and the extravagant purchases of the criminal. Disgust is the emotion in question. It reminds me of a cat I had that would just keep eating till it puked, then eat the puke. Only the cat wasn't stealing the food, so it wasn't quite so gross as Imelda.
ionised 10y ago
Did you miss the part about stealing billions from state coffers? How would you not feel disgusted by that?

jasonkostempski 10y ago

It's not like that money disappears, it just traded hands. Whoever sold the painting might use some of it for charity.

tonyedgecombe 10y ago
I'm not convinced it's as benign as that. Less equal societies tend to be less happy, at the top and the bottom as you can see in the article.

tonyedgecombe 10y ago

Hoarding during scarcity is quite a sensible strategy, you want to get through the winter season or drought. What we don't seem able to do is turn that off in an environment of abundance. We can't seem to get past that evolutionary adaptation and it isn't doing us any good.

jondubois 10y ago
Some people are genetically greedier than others and greedier people are much more likely to get into positions of power. To make matters worse, people tend to like people who are like them. So greedy people help other greedy people. This means that power and money becomes concentrated in the hands of the greedy.
- monster_group 10y ago
  "Some people are genetically greedier..." That's a pretty bold claim that I am coming across for the first time. I did not know greed has its roots in genetics. Can you cite some references? I would love to read more about this.
  - pseudonom- 10y ago
    Finding 1 here: https://www.gwern.net/docs/genetics/2016-plomin.pdf https://www.gwern.net/docs/genetics/2016-plomin.pdf > All psychological traits show significant and substantial genetic influence
- cryptica 10y ago
  Well, we're made up of DNA. Scientists unanimously agree that DNA is responsible for all of our characteristics. If you search the internet, you should be able to find plenty of papers and evidence which document the effects of specific genes on personality. Recently, I watched a lecture about a specific gene nicknamed the "Warrior gene" - Scientists found that people who carried this gene were more likely to become serial killers. I would argue that the presence of this "warrior gene" would be strongly correlated with greed. Police officers will tell you that the serial killer mindset is about low empathy combined with a desire for power over other people - That sounds like a pretty good recipe for greed too. I wouldn't be surprised if there were other genes that played a part in this personality trait we call greed. Having a materialist view of the world, I think it's pretty safe to say that everything which differentiates us from non-living objects can be attributed to chemical reactions which trace back to DNA itself. The cultural/environmental aspects of greed are merely feedback loops that are rooted in the genetics of the members of any given group/culture.

carsongross 10y ago

Don't get ill. Sin brings its own punishment along with it. Ask me how I know.

tsunamifury 10y ago
how do you know? (out of real interest)

polymeris 10y ago

> Is there some primitive or primate instinct in all of us? I think so. An instinct exacerbated by marketing. Most of us who aren't wealthy also spend a decent chunk of our incomes on unnecessary things. They might not be luxuries as extravagant as the ones described in the article, but they would still pay for plenty of shirts in India -- or my country. Why do we do this? Why do we eat at restaurants, go on vacations abroad or buy nice clothes instead of spending that money in a humanitarian way? After that, it's just a matter of scale and of getting used to a lifestyle that includes 100s of ugly bags and tackily framed works of art.

rhcom2 10y ago
A little different with that specific example though because the Marcos were criminals that stole billions.

smallgovt 10y ago

I think the reason comes down to differences in values. Values are the measuring sticks by which people quantify success in life. Whether or not we realize it, we constantly measure our actions against our values, and how we 'measure up' determines our self-worth. If I had to guess, kindness and compassion are core to your values. As a result, when you see a greedy person, you feel disgust because you would feel worthless if you were in their shoes acting in such an unkind/selfish manner. For better or worse, not everyone holds the same values. For example, some people value 'winning'. Individuals who value 'winning' want to be the best no matter what. There are many ways to measure the value of 'winning', but money/material possessions is one scoreboard/metric. If they accumulate more of it, they feel more self-worth. Why do people hold less 'wholesome' value sets? Are certain values less worthy of others? Should we pass judgement on people who hold conflicting values? These are interesting questions. On the topic of 'why', I'd expect environment plays a major factor. If you're brought up in an isolated bubble of wealthy individuals, it's quite easy to imagine how one would grow a value attachment to the associated luxuries. Personally, I don't think there's inherent value in anything. As a result, no one value is 'truly' better than another. However, some values drive actions that harm other people, and those are worth passing judgement from a utilitarian standpoint.

whack 10y ago
> "Personally, it's hard for me judge other value sets because I see so much dissonance and irrationality in value norms, and I'd end up passing judgment on most people. My current belief is that there's no real inherent value in anything. As a result, no one value is truly better than another. I've found that this perspective makes me more understanding and tolerant of other people whom I previously would have been repelled by." Most of your post was pretty well thought out, but you're likely getting downvoted because this last part just sounds strange, and intellectually lazy to boot. By the reasoning above, any behavior, including murder and rape, can be justified. "They just happen to have different values. Who am I to judge them?" I agree that it's hard to judge the relative merits of different values, but just because it's hard doesn't mean we should give up and call it a day.
- 10y ago