4 ms·

It is Trump making the decision now, not the international community. I'll also remind you, that the only country in the entire world that has extensively used

It is Trump making the decision now, not the international community. I'll also remind you, that the only country in the entire world that has extensively used WMDs is the US. The US has used Nukes (WWII), and is also responsible for the most extensive use of chemical weapons of any county (Vietnam). NK has never used a WMD.

jerf 10y ago
"It is Trump making the decision now, not the international community." It may not be "the international community", but it is certainly not just Trump. South Korea, China, and lately Japan all have an interest and are actively attempting to steer results. I mean, I'd bet if you consult your model of Trump that you think is acting it will tell you that being a crazy madman unconstrained by rationality or morality he unilaterally nuked Pyongyang last month. That model applied consistently, instead of piecemeal whenever cynically convenient, is clearly not predictive. (If that is not your personal model, timthelion, I am sure this message reaches many people for whom that is their unexamined model, so still not a waste.)
ethbro 10y ago
Let's add some context. Hiroshima and Nagasaki: 129-226k dead Nazi Holocaust: 4.9-11m dead Soviet Holodomor: 1.8-7.5m dead Cambodian Genocide: 1.7-3m dead Armenian Genocide: 800k-1.5m dead Vietnam War (all deaths, US period): 1-3m dead In terms of human death, WMDs have historically been the least of conflict-affected people's worries, compared to starvation and drawn out total war.
thrden 10y ago
Lots of countries had widespread Chemical weapons usage. Iraq used chemical weapons in the Iran-Iraq war: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_chemical_weapons_program https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_chemical_weapons_program Israel used white phosphorous till 2013: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-22310544 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-22310544 the Soviet Union was accused of using chemical weapons in afghanistan: http://www.paulbogdanor.com/left/afghan/report.pdf http://www.paulbogdanor.com/left/afghan/report.pdf The UN stated that Cuban units used VX as well as Sarin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_warfare#Angola https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_warfare#Angola even the vietnamese used chemical weapons: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_border_raids_in_Thailand#1985 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_border_raids_in_Tha... None of these examples include the use of chemical weapons in WWII or WWI. During these wars most major european countries used chemical weapons of some kind. these instances don't excuse their usage, But I don't believe much is gained by pretending the rest of the world is blameless.
- timthelion 10y ago
  My point was, that OP was saying that countries that have and use WMDs are not legitimate. I agree. I don't think most governments are legit. But it seems NK is rather mild when it comes to WMDs. The US has far far more of them than NK and actually uses them.

jerf 10y ago

"It is Trump making the decision now, not the international community." It may not be "the international community", but it is certainly not just Trump. South Korea, China, and lately Japan all have an interest and are actively attempting to steer results. I mean, I'd bet if you consult your model of Trump that you think is acting it will tell you that being a crazy madman unconstrained by rationality or morality he unilaterally nuked Pyongyang last month. That model applied consistently, instead of piecemeal whenever cynically convenient, is clearly not predictive. (If that is not your personal model, timthelion, I am sure this message reaches many people for whom that is their unexamined model, so still not a waste.)

ethbro 10y ago

Let's add some context. Hiroshima and Nagasaki: 129-226k dead Nazi Holocaust: 4.9-11m dead Soviet Holodomor: 1.8-7.5m dead Cambodian Genocide: 1.7-3m dead Armenian Genocide: 800k-1.5m dead Vietnam War (all deaths, US period): 1-3m dead In terms of human death, WMDs have historically been the least of conflict-affected people's worries, compared to starvation and drawn out total war.

thrden 10y ago

Lots of countries had widespread Chemical weapons usage. Iraq used chemical weapons in the Iran-Iraq war: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_chemical_weapons_program https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_chemical_weapons_program Israel used white phosphorous till 2013: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-22310544 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-22310544 the Soviet Union was accused of using chemical weapons in afghanistan: http://www.paulbogdanor.com/left/afghan/report.pdf http://www.paulbogdanor.com/left/afghan/report.pdf The UN stated that Cuban units used VX as well as Sarin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_warfare#Angola https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_warfare#Angola even the vietnamese used chemical weapons: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_border_raids_in_Thailand#1985 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_border_raids_in_Tha... None of these examples include the use of chemical weapons in WWII or WWI. During these wars most major european countries used chemical weapons of some kind. these instances don't excuse their usage, But I don't believe much is gained by pretending the rest of the world is blameless.

timthelion 10y ago
My point was, that OP was saying that countries that have and use WMDs are not legitimate. I agree. I don't think most governments are legit. But it seems NK is rather mild when it comes to WMDs. The US has far far more of them than NK and actually uses them.