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With all due respect, I don't really buy that narrative. People often mistake critical thinking skills with close-mindedness. Just because someone uses thought

With all due respect, I don't really buy that narrative. People often mistake critical thinking skills with close-mindedness. Just because someone uses thought and reason to reject an idea doesn't mean they are close-minded. Not all ideas deserve acceptance. I'm as open-minded as it gets, but if you tell me that vaccines cause autism then you will go down several notches in my book. (Ironically, there are many anti-vax people in the Bay Area!) I don't know about Oviedo specifically (maybe it's a liberal haven in the middle of a conservative sea, like Austin TX), but I've known several Floridans from the more conservative parts of the state, and they were either naive and gullible as hell, or actually close-minded. I don't say that to stereotype the entire state, but it's worth remembering that conservatism is about the preservation of the status quo, and by definition it's not nearly as accepting of new (and valid) ideas and perspectives as liberalism is. That's not meant to be a value judgment, but rather a descriptive statement.

muninn_ 10y ago
Right, that's one of the things I have found my fellow liberals struggling with. They don't understand the state of mind of somebody who wants to maintain things how they are, "we like it here" and attribute that to being close-minded, racist, ignorant, whatever. Sometimes that's true, but often times it's not. For example, I'm quite bearish on immigration, for example (I won't get into it here unless asked), and among my fellow liberal friends it's something they don't understand and considered "close-minded" or "unaccepting" but what does being close-minded actually mean? In my case, for example, I've thought about an issue and have drawn a conclusion based on the facts at hand. I'm very open to new perspectives and new ideas and often challenge people on their own preconceptions because I think it's valuable that people are challenged. But again, I'm not "close-minded", I've just drawn a different conclusion. People need to understand the difference and they largely don't.
stmfreak 10y ago
That sort of "critical thinking" arrogance is what keeps people from sharing their different opinions and perspectives from your pompous ass.
- tunesmith 10y ago
  Not sure why critical thinking is in quotes - critical thinking is a real thing. It's connecting conclusions with premises that lead to those conclusions, so that if someone else started with those premises, they'd also arrive at the same conclusions. It's not a different opinion or perspective, and it's not pompous - it's by definition something that can be shared across all opinions and perspectives.
  - Veelox 10y ago
    > if someone else started with those premises, they'd also arrive at the same conclusions I like your definition of critical thinking, it also allows me to highlight why I agree with sideband. In the bay area there tends to be less acceptance for differing premises. I am a conservative Christian and certain premises I bring to the conversation automatically make me "hateful" or "bigoted". While I have seen this most prominently in the religious/moral realm I see it in politics as well. In the bay area there is a right set of premises and a wrong set. If you start with the wrong set it is acceptable to wholly reject the conclusions without engaging critically with why the premises are wrong.
    - tunesmith 10y ago
      Yes, I'm far from a conservative Christian but I appreciate that while some premises are fact, other premises are simply "values" ("should/ought" statements) that can vary from person to person. People can reason accurately towards different conclusions from those values. People should be able to debate/disagree respectfully about differing values, assuming there's a basic level of humanity in those values. Of course, people can reason incorrectly, too. I think there's a set of people that disagree with the values, but there's another set of people that object to conclusions that appear inconsistent when compared to the premises/values they purportedly rest upon.
      - Veelox 10y ago
        > assuming there's a basic level of humanity in those values I am not saying that you are this way, but I have had interactions that lead me to believe that reasoning allows some to wholly reject values I hold dear as "intolerant" without consideration, all in the name of tolerance. It comes across as comical in a tragic way. On the flip side, I have had interactions where I was able have a disagreement and work backward to the differing values which we were able to agree to disagree on.
pc2g4d 10y ago
Everybody you don't agree with is "close-minded". It's the fact that they can't seem to see the sense in your own position that makes them seem like such benighted fools. But they look at you in the same way. Unless you can accept that _to those people_ opposition to vaccines or whatever _does_ make a kind of sense, then I suggest you're being equally close-minded. You may be right, but your mind is not open to the sense in other people's worldviews. The division of our society into ideological camps that point fingers at each other and can't see the others as basically-sensible human beings drives me crazy.
charlesdm 10y ago
> But if you tell me that vaccines cause autism I'm not saying you're right or wrong, but have you researched this? My assumption is "no they don't" but it's actually an area I know very little about. Looking at the whole discussion currently happening around glyphosate / Roundup, where extensive lobbying has been done by Monsanto to block out any negative reports from the public domain, I (personally) think a lot of things shouldn't just be disregarded as absolute nonsense (even if they, eventually are). Pharma companies are also not above extensive lobbying (look at Mylan and their EpiPen). Autism rates have gone up during the last 20+ years. Why is this? It would be interesting to at least be able to figure out why, so you are able to rule out other things.
- pc86 10y ago
  Not everyone needs to do scientific research and read peer-reviewed journal articles about every topic to come to a conclusion about it. Until such time as reputable scientists start saying there is more than a tangential relationship between vaccination and autism, it's a pretty untenable position to have. > Autism rates have gone up during the last 20+ years. Why is this? Autism rates increasing doesn't mean there's more autism, it means there's more diagnosed autism. It could be that it was under-diagnosed in the past. It could be that it's actually increasing. It could be that it's simply being over-diagnosed now. I'm bracing for the backlash but I've met a dozen or so diagnosed autistic children and more than a few of them are just assholes or have parents looking for an easy way to not discipline their children.
  - tluyben2 10y ago
    > but I've met a dozen or so diagnosed autistic children and more than a few of them are just assholes or have parents looking for an easy way to not discipline their children. Yes and same with ADHD, gluten intolerance and other 'diseases' that have gone up in the past 20 years while your annoying, anti social, always crying and shouting, only likes sugar child is just the result of lazy parenting and a general lack of tolerance to suffering at large.

muninn_ 10y ago

Right, that's one of the things I have found my fellow liberals struggling with. They don't understand the state of mind of somebody who wants to maintain things how they are, "we like it here" and attribute that to being close-minded, racist, ignorant, whatever. Sometimes that's true, but often times it's not. For example, I'm quite bearish on immigration, for example (I won't get into it here unless asked), and among my fellow liberal friends it's something they don't understand and considered "close-minded" or "unaccepting" but what does being close-minded actually mean? In my case, for example, I've thought about an issue and have drawn a conclusion based on the facts at hand. I'm very open to new perspectives and new ideas and often challenge people on their own preconceptions because I think it's valuable that people are challenged. But again, I'm not "close-minded", I've just drawn a different conclusion. People need to understand the difference and they largely don't.

stmfreak 10y ago

That sort of "critical thinking" arrogance is what keeps people from sharing their different opinions and perspectives from your pompous ass.

tunesmith 10y ago
Not sure why critical thinking is in quotes - critical thinking is a real thing. It's connecting conclusions with premises that lead to those conclusions, so that if someone else started with those premises, they'd also arrive at the same conclusions. It's not a different opinion or perspective, and it's not pompous - it's by definition something that can be shared across all opinions and perspectives.
- Veelox 10y ago
  > if someone else started with those premises, they'd also arrive at the same conclusions I like your definition of critical thinking, it also allows me to highlight why I agree with sideband. In the bay area there tends to be less acceptance for differing premises. I am a conservative Christian and certain premises I bring to the conversation automatically make me "hateful" or "bigoted". While I have seen this most prominently in the religious/moral realm I see it in politics as well. In the bay area there is a right set of premises and a wrong set. If you start with the wrong set it is acceptable to wholly reject the conclusions without engaging critically with why the premises are wrong.
  - tunesmith 10y ago
    Yes, I'm far from a conservative Christian but I appreciate that while some premises are fact, other premises are simply "values" ("should/ought" statements) that can vary from person to person. People can reason accurately towards different conclusions from those values. People should be able to debate/disagree respectfully about differing values, assuming there's a basic level of humanity in those values. Of course, people can reason incorrectly, too. I think there's a set of people that disagree with the values, but there's another set of people that object to conclusions that appear inconsistent when compared to the premises/values they purportedly rest upon.
    - Veelox 10y ago
      > assuming there's a basic level of humanity in those values I am not saying that you are this way, but I have had interactions that lead me to believe that reasoning allows some to wholly reject values I hold dear as "intolerant" without consideration, all in the name of tolerance. It comes across as comical in a tragic way. On the flip side, I have had interactions where I was able have a disagreement and work backward to the differing values which we were able to agree to disagree on.

pc2g4d 10y ago

Everybody you don't agree with is "close-minded". It's the fact that they can't seem to see the sense in your own position that makes them seem like such benighted fools. But they look at you in the same way. Unless you can accept that _to those people_ opposition to vaccines or whatever _does_ make a kind of sense, then I suggest you're being equally close-minded. You may be right, but your mind is not open to the sense in other people's worldviews. The division of our society into ideological camps that point fingers at each other and can't see the others as basically-sensible human beings drives me crazy.

charlesdm 10y ago

> But if you tell me that vaccines cause autism I'm not saying you're right or wrong, but have you researched this? My assumption is "no they don't" but it's actually an area I know very little about. Looking at the whole discussion currently happening around glyphosate / Roundup, where extensive lobbying has been done by Monsanto to block out any negative reports from the public domain, I (personally) think a lot of things shouldn't just be disregarded as absolute nonsense (even if they, eventually are). Pharma companies are also not above extensive lobbying (look at Mylan and their EpiPen). Autism rates have gone up during the last 20+ years. Why is this? It would be interesting to at least be able to figure out why, so you are able to rule out other things.

pc86 10y ago
Not everyone needs to do scientific research and read peer-reviewed journal articles about every topic to come to a conclusion about it. Until such time as reputable scientists start saying there is more than a tangential relationship between vaccination and autism, it's a pretty untenable position to have. > Autism rates have gone up during the last 20+ years. Why is this? Autism rates increasing doesn't mean there's more autism, it means there's more diagnosed autism. It could be that it was under-diagnosed in the past. It could be that it's actually increasing. It could be that it's simply being over-diagnosed now. I'm bracing for the backlash but I've met a dozen or so diagnosed autistic children and more than a few of them are just assholes or have parents looking for an easy way to not discipline their children.
- tluyben2 10y ago
  > but I've met a dozen or so diagnosed autistic children and more than a few of them are just assholes or have parents looking for an easy way to not discipline their children. Yes and same with ADHD, gluten intolerance and other 'diseases' that have gone up in the past 20 years while your annoying, anti social, always crying and shouting, only likes sugar child is just the result of lazy parenting and a general lack of tolerance to suffering at large.