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Are you also of the opinion that providing free wifi access is "assisting unknown criminals" and should be prosecuted?

alehul 9y ago
That's a good point. Wifi seems different in that it's somewhat traceable when necessary, and the person or institution would likely help with that in cases of serious issues, unlike willingly putting your personal identity at the end of an anonymized network you can't control the actions of. I support privacy in almost every case, but this even prevents actual subpoenas of serious magnitude or importance, and makes that individual the final point of contact, you know?
- cryptarch 9y ago
  How exactly is wifi traceable? IP addresses of what is connected to can be hidden by proxies or anonymizing networks, or even just TLS. MAC addresses are spoofed routinely. It's wireless so fat chance it's reachable from places not under your surveillance, if you have any of that in the first place. I also don't agree that an IP address is your personal identity, I think that's a very harmful idea. I am not a computer and I just barely control part of what my machines do. Do you believe in the possibility of a risk-less society?
  - alehul 9y ago
    A wifi network would likely involve a physical location with security cameras or some trace/hint on the network, although you make valid points there regarding how that could be inaccurate or useless. The individual hiding their own identity in that case shouldn't be the fault of the operator of the wifi, though. I agree with you that an IP shouldn't, in every case, be your personal identity and that legal situations should take context into account. Everyone from advertisers to the government uses your IP address as a personal identity for you, though. It unarguably leads investigators to your person, and that's our only real method of dealing with cybercrime. Leading investigators to an incorrect individual seems different than to an obvious wall, such as a VPN, that would require a lot of effort and justification on the investigator's part to break through. Risk-less society in what way, if you could rephrase?
    - lurker456 9y ago
      >"It unarguably leads investigators to your person". That's a very debatable claim, from both a legal and technical viewpoint
      - alehul 9y ago
        How so? Technically & legally they can find out that the IP address belongs to you / your computer, and will investigate (not that it necessarily means guilt). I highly doubt that an individual who commits a serious crime over the internet without masking their IP won't be investigated.
        cryptarch 9y ago
        Many consumer ISP's use an IP pool, and do not store logs in a tamper-proof way. Wifi routers are insecure and often can't be flashed with more transparant/secure software, so in practice anyone within 100m with a directional antenna can connect to your wifi. People let guests on wifi, and students tend to share internet connections. Some devices randomize their MAC address by default (Apple stuff I think) and MAC addresses are trivially spoofed. If I'm on your wifi router I can probably spoof the MAC addresses of any and all of your devices, and I definitely can if you've ever connected to an AP managed by me. Lastly, ISP's can spoof everything and fabricate logs with ease. So no, technically there is no proveable link between IP address and person or device. Perhaps legally but that has no bearing on the technical reality.
  - dandelion_lover 9y ago
    > I also don't agree that an IP address is your personal identity, I think that's a very harmful idea. I am not a computer and I just barely control part of what my machines do. EFF agrees with you: https://www.eff.org/wp/unreliable-informants-ip-addresses-digital-tips-and-police-raids https://www.eff.org/wp/unreliable-informants-ip-addresses-di...
moneytalks 9y ago
If you provide a tool to a criminal that they use in commission of a crime, you are assisting them and should generally be prosecuted unless a good reason exists to counter. Is providing a public service a "good enough" reason? If you provide free classes on bomb-making, should you bear any responsibility for how your students use the knowledge? Just because you're offering a public good/service doesn't absolve you of responsibility.
- aeorgnoieang 9y ago
  What about roads? And cell phones? And paper? Should the public schools teachers be held accountable for everything they taught any criminals that they used in the commission of any of their crimes?
  - moneytalks 9y ago
    You're right, these aren't easy questions. Your examples are good ones. If my land had a trail through it that I knew was being used for human trafficking but also for natural resources preservation, I'd still have a problem with that "road". And, yes, it doesn't really matter what setting the bomb-making class is held in the teacher arguably should bear some accountability.
  - angry-hacker 9y ago
    And now the tricky one for you, Americans: what about guns?

That's a good point. Wifi seems different in that it's somewhat traceable when necessary, and the person or institution would likely help with that in cases of serious issues, unlike willingly putting your personal identity at the end of an anonymized network you can't control the actions of. I support privacy in almost every case, but this even prevents actual subpoenas of serious magnitude or importance, and makes that individual the final point of contact, you know?

cryptarch 9y ago
How exactly is wifi traceable? IP addresses of what is connected to can be hidden by proxies or anonymizing networks, or even just TLS. MAC addresses are spoofed routinely. It's wireless so fat chance it's reachable from places not under your surveillance, if you have any of that in the first place. I also don't agree that an IP address is your personal identity, I think that's a very harmful idea. I am not a computer and I just barely control part of what my machines do. Do you believe in the possibility of a risk-less society?
- alehul 9y ago
  A wifi network would likely involve a physical location with security cameras or some trace/hint on the network, although you make valid points there regarding how that could be inaccurate or useless. The individual hiding their own identity in that case shouldn't be the fault of the operator of the wifi, though. I agree with you that an IP shouldn't, in every case, be your personal identity and that legal situations should take context into account. Everyone from advertisers to the government uses your IP address as a personal identity for you, though. It unarguably leads investigators to your person, and that's our only real method of dealing with cybercrime. Leading investigators to an incorrect individual seems different than to an obvious wall, such as a VPN, that would require a lot of effort and justification on the investigator's part to break through. Risk-less society in what way, if you could rephrase?
  - lurker456 9y ago
    >"It unarguably leads investigators to your person". That's a very debatable claim, from both a legal and technical viewpoint
    - alehul 9y ago
      How so? Technically & legally they can find out that the IP address belongs to you / your computer, and will investigate (not that it necessarily means guilt). I highly doubt that an individual who commits a serious crime over the internet without masking their IP won't be investigated.
      - cryptarch 9y ago
        Many consumer ISP's use an IP pool, and do not store logs in a tamper-proof way. Wifi routers are insecure and often can't be flashed with more transparant/secure software, so in practice anyone within 100m with a directional antenna can connect to your wifi. People let guests on wifi, and students tend to share internet connections. Some devices randomize their MAC address by default (Apple stuff I think) and MAC addresses are trivially spoofed. If I'm on your wifi router I can probably spoof the MAC addresses of any and all of your devices, and I definitely can if you've ever connected to an AP managed by me. Lastly, ISP's can spoof everything and fabricate logs with ease. So no, technically there is no proveable link between IP address and person or device. Perhaps legally but that has no bearing on the technical reality.
- dandelion_lover 9y ago
  > I also don't agree that an IP address is your personal identity, I think that's a very harmful idea. I am not a computer and I just barely control part of what my machines do. EFF agrees with you: https://www.eff.org/wp/unreliable-informants-ip-addresses-digital-tips-and-police-raids https://www.eff.org/wp/unreliable-informants-ip-addresses-di...

moneytalks 9y ago

If you provide a tool to a criminal that they use in commission of a crime, you are assisting them and should generally be prosecuted unless a good reason exists to counter. Is providing a public service a "good enough" reason? If you provide free classes on bomb-making, should you bear any responsibility for how your students use the knowledge? Just because you're offering a public good/service doesn't absolve you of responsibility.

aeorgnoieang 9y ago
What about roads? And cell phones? And paper? Should the public schools teachers be held accountable for everything they taught any criminals that they used in the commission of any of their crimes?
- moneytalks 9y ago
  You're right, these aren't easy questions. Your examples are good ones. If my land had a trail through it that I knew was being used for human trafficking but also for natural resources preservation, I'd still have a problem with that "road". And, yes, it doesn't really matter what setting the bomb-making class is held in the teacher arguably should bear some accountability.
- angry-hacker 9y ago
  And now the tricky one for you, Americans: what about guns?