6 ms·

Google's approach is cautious, however has Tesla been reckless?

by josefresco 10y ago

csours 10y ago
By describing and marketing driver assistance technology as self-driving technology.
- TheAnimus 10y ago
  Which is kind of funny, because every pilot knows the limitation of each kind of autopilot. I think a lot of it is public expectation of that kind of name.
  - csours 10y ago
    Right, and if drivers read ALL of the fine print of Tesla Autopilot, they would have been informed of the limitations of that system as well. The problem comes when the Large Print promises things that the system does not do. Another problem came from the implementation of the system where Tesla did not verify that the driver maintains hands on the wheel.
    - marvin 10y ago
      The large print says to keep your hands on the steering wheel and be prepared for the autopilot to fail or disengage at any time. I don't see how this is promising a self-driving car?
      - csours 10y ago
        It does now, but in previous versions it did not.
        legolas2412 10y ago
        And even now, the popular perception is that Tesla is autonomous, and it is only the regulations holding them back.
foolfoolz 10y ago
googles cars have gotten in a few fender benders and side swipes people have died using teslas autopilot
- sovnade 10y ago
  That also could be because autopilot is only usable on highways (IIRC) and the fatality rate per accident on highways is much higher than standard town/city driving. Either way there's not nearly enough data to draw conclusions from.
  - Siecje 10y ago
    Autopilot won't stop at stop signs or stop lights, so it is not as useful when not on highways. Just to clarify the downvotes. Highway driving is safer.
  - euyyn 10y ago
    Google's self-driving cars started on highways (easier problem to tackle) before moving on to city streets.
- QuercusMax 10y ago
  There was only one accident I'm aware of in which the Waymo vehicle was at fault; the vast majority have been humans doing stupid things like rear-ending them at stop lights and t-boning by running a red light. (Disclaimer: I work for an Alphabet company.)
  - maverick_iceman 10y ago
    Humans will do stupid things. A self-driving car has to drive safely in spite of them.
    - QuercusMax 10y ago
      How do you avoid being rear ended at a stoplight? There may be ways to avoid some of the other types of accidents, but those ones (which have happened several times) are difficult to escape. The real question is what's the safety threshold - safer than median human? 90th percentile? 99th?
maxfurman 10y ago
Arguably. Tesla has not done a good job educating their customers on the limits of their "Autopilot" system, which has led to at least one preventable death. https://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/07/28/tesla_autopilot_death_driver_was_speeding/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/07/28/tesla_autopilot_dea...
- greglindahl 10y ago
  Where's the proof that it was a driver education problem? This argument gets rehashed every month or so here on HN.
  - dmix 10y ago
    Not to mention basing this on a single data point where a fatality occurred. How about the tens of thousands of other drives vs standard? That would at least be statistically relevant. Even though what they released isn't a self-driving car but a glorified cruise control. I personally don't really see how that is reckless at all.
  - vkou 10y ago
    Well, every time this discussion comes up, HN spends >100 posts splitting hairs as to what calling their system 'autopilot' implies. Given that the technology is useless if you use it as 'intended' (Be aware, and in control of your vehicle 100% of the time[1]) I don't think this debate will be settled anytime soon. [1] My 97 Avalon drives just fine when operated under those conditions.
- Spare_account 10y ago
  Is it possible to extrapolate from the recorded reduction in accidents after the introduction of autopilot and work out if fewer people have died as a result of introducing when they did? Here's an article which describes a 40% drop in the accident rate: https://electrek.co/2017/01/19/tesla-crash-rate-autopilot-nhtsa/ https://electrek.co/2017/01/19/tesla-crash-rate-autopilot-nh... The NHTSA's figures show a drop from 1.3 crashes per million miles before Autosteer to 0.8 crashes after Autosteer. Would any of those crashes have been fatal? I don't have the numbers to answer that but I posit that introducing Autopilot has prevented more deaths than it has caused.

Google's approach is cautious, however has Tesla been reckless?

csours 10y ago

By describing and marketing driver assistance technology as self-driving technology.

TheAnimus 10y ago
Which is kind of funny, because every pilot knows the limitation of each kind of autopilot. I think a lot of it is public expectation of that kind of name.
- csours 10y ago
  Right, and if drivers read ALL of the fine print of Tesla Autopilot, they would have been informed of the limitations of that system as well. The problem comes when the Large Print promises things that the system does not do. Another problem came from the implementation of the system where Tesla did not verify that the driver maintains hands on the wheel.
  - marvin 10y ago
    The large print says to keep your hands on the steering wheel and be prepared for the autopilot to fail or disengage at any time. I don't see how this is promising a self-driving car?
    - csours 10y ago
      It does now, but in previous versions it did not.
      - legolas2412 10y ago
        And even now, the popular perception is that Tesla is autonomous, and it is only the regulations holding them back.

foolfoolz 10y ago

googles cars have gotten in a few fender benders and side swipes people have died using teslas autopilot

sovnade 10y ago
That also could be because autopilot is only usable on highways (IIRC) and the fatality rate per accident on highways is much higher than standard town/city driving. Either way there's not nearly enough data to draw conclusions from.
- Siecje 10y ago
  Autopilot won't stop at stop signs or stop lights, so it is not as useful when not on highways. Just to clarify the downvotes. Highway driving is safer.
- euyyn 10y ago
  Google's self-driving cars started on highways (easier problem to tackle) before moving on to city streets.
QuercusMax 10y ago
There was only one accident I'm aware of in which the Waymo vehicle was at fault; the vast majority have been humans doing stupid things like rear-ending them at stop lights and t-boning by running a red light. (Disclaimer: I work for an Alphabet company.)
- maverick_iceman 10y ago
  Humans will do stupid things. A self-driving car has to drive safely in spite of them.
  - QuercusMax 10y ago
    How do you avoid being rear ended at a stoplight? There may be ways to avoid some of the other types of accidents, but those ones (which have happened several times) are difficult to escape. The real question is what's the safety threshold - safer than median human? 90th percentile? 99th?

maxfurman 10y ago

Arguably. Tesla has not done a good job educating their customers on the limits of their "Autopilot" system, which has led to at least one preventable death. https://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/07/28/tesla_autopilot_death_driver_was_speeding/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/07/28/tesla_autopilot_dea...

greglindahl 10y ago
Where's the proof that it was a driver education problem? This argument gets rehashed every month or so here on HN.
- dmix 10y ago
  Not to mention basing this on a single data point where a fatality occurred. How about the tens of thousands of other drives vs standard? That would at least be statistically relevant. Even though what they released isn't a self-driving car but a glorified cruise control. I personally don't really see how that is reckless at all.
- vkou 10y ago
  Well, every time this discussion comes up, HN spends >100 posts splitting hairs as to what calling their system 'autopilot' implies. Given that the technology is useless if you use it as 'intended' (Be aware, and in control of your vehicle 100% of the time[1]) I don't think this debate will be settled anytime soon. [1] My 97 Avalon drives just fine when operated under those conditions.
Spare_account 10y ago
Is it possible to extrapolate from the recorded reduction in accidents after the introduction of autopilot and work out if fewer people have died as a result of introducing when they did? Here's an article which describes a 40% drop in the accident rate: https://electrek.co/2017/01/19/tesla-crash-rate-autopilot-nhtsa/ https://electrek.co/2017/01/19/tesla-crash-rate-autopilot-nh... The NHTSA's figures show a drop from 1.3 crashes per million miles before Autosteer to 0.8 crashes after Autosteer. Would any of those crashes have been fatal? I don't have the numbers to answer that but I posit that introducing Autopilot has prevented more deaths than it has caused.