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Access Now and EFF Condemn the Arrest of Tor Node Operator Dmitry Bogatov

154 points by remx 9y ago

throwanem 9y ago
> Put simply: running a Tor exit node is not a crime In Russia? You sure about that? I wouldn't be, if I lived in Russia, and I'd be much less so today than yesterday. It wouldn't surprise me if this prosecution were intended to make a point, in the characteristically subtle style of the modern Russian government, that regardless of what any potentially relevant legislation might say, running an exit node, and by extension acting in ways that help conceal communications potentially of interest to the state, isn't a very good idea if you cherish whatever stability and comfort your daily life affords. The modern US government, on the other hand, has tended to be rather less blunt about making such points, and to choose different such points to make.
- pg_is_a_butt 9y ago
  Trump steaks are the best steaks.
- wand3r 9y ago
  > if you cherish whatever stability and comfort your daily life affords. I reckon this was their point rather than a rebuttal. They seem to believe it is legal as well as a right and they're going to at least try. Would I do run a tor node? Not in Russia and prob not in the US where I live. I am glad a global network of people are braver than I am.
  - throwanem 9y ago
    Well, whether it's legal and whether it's a right - itself a concept of law, with no meaning outside that context - is up to the state, and the state doesn't seem thus far inclined to decide the question in their favor. Perhaps they will convince it otherwise.
    - supergarfield 9y ago
      Whether it's legal is certainly up to the state, but whether it's an ethical right just as certainly isn't. All rights aren't legal rights.
      - throwanem 9y ago
        Sure, if you're discussing the matter with someone who subscribes to the same system of ethics you do. Otherwise, if it matters to you that your interlocutor agree with you on whether and which ethical rights apply, you've got some convincing to do.
    - wand3r 9y ago
      Right. I meant that potentially they consulted lawyers / evaluated the law before making the claim. I have no idea if it is legal in Russia (and they may not either) but the quote seemed to be a statement which if levied at RU; hopefully has something backing it up
      - throwanem 9y ago
        I read that as a normative, not a positive, statement. If there's anything at all to suggest it be taken otherwise, I'd love to see a cite, because I've looked for one and not found it.
driverdan 9y ago
If you're going to run a Tor node at home make it a relay, not an exit. There is practically no risk to running a relay. Exits have risk because of situations like this. If you want to run exit nodes use a hosted server. It separates it from your normal traffic and makes it clear that it has a specific purpose.
- phyzome 9y ago
  You'll also get the occasional website that blocks or reduces services for you because they (or their IP reputation provider) doesn't understand Tor and grabs the entire list of relays. Notably, BrightCloud (Webroot) is such an ill-informed provider, and Dan's DNS blocklist offers both exit and relay lists (the latter is an attractive nuisance). Care2 is a consumer that blocks intermediate relays, although only on their http: traffic, not https:. (I'm guessing their SSL termination proxy messes up their IP detection!) The odd thing is that the Tor Project provides an easy to parse, up-to-date list of exits (https://check.torproject.org/exit-addresses https://check.torproject.org/exit-addresses) but these providers go to a lot of trouble to harvest bad data themselves.
c3534l 9y ago
TIL Kanye West is illegal in Russia.
alehul 9y ago
edit: please comment as opposed to downvote -- HN's value is civilized debate and information. I value privacy and support VPN use, but for some reason this seems different to me. Maybe something to do with a VPN being a company using servers to create an obvious layer of identity protection that police can generally subpoena when of importance. By running a Tor exit node, this individual was consciously allowing his IP address to be used for potentially malicious purposes. Why can't it easily be compared to someone making a cover for or assisting a criminal they don't know the identify of, which would be a crime if committed in person? Investigations lead back to him because he put himself in that position. analogy: VPNs seem like concealing your ID from everyone, however police can sometimes work to see it if a court deems it justifiable and necessary. Individuals running Tor exit nodes seem like being given someone else's ID instead, with no trace otherwise. Untraceable VPNs (ones unaffected by subpoenas) are somewhere in the middle, but the primary issue I see with this is the Tor system's use of someone else's ID rather than hiding your own (investigators are aware when they find a VPN service's IP).
- cryptarch 9y ago
  Are you also of the opinion that providing free wifi access is "assisting unknown criminals" and should be prosecuted?
  - alehul 9y ago
    That's a good point. Wifi seems different in that it's somewhat traceable when necessary, and the person or institution would likely help with that in cases of serious issues, unlike willingly putting your personal identity at the end of an anonymized network you can't control the actions of. I support privacy in almost every case, but this even prevents actual subpoenas of serious magnitude or importance, and makes that individual the final point of contact, you know?
    - cryptarch 9y ago
      How exactly is wifi traceable? IP addresses of what is connected to can be hidden by proxies or anonymizing networks, or even just TLS. MAC addresses are spoofed routinely. It's wireless so fat chance it's reachable from places not under your surveillance, if you have any of that in the first place. I also don't agree that an IP address is your personal identity, I think that's a very harmful idea. I am not a computer and I just barely control part of what my machines do. Do you believe in the possibility of a risk-less society?
temp-dude-87844 9y ago
This is disturbing, but this is how the buck stops, isn't it? All of these cryptographic dataflow concealer technologies have one very unpleasant failure mode: somewhere they have to interface with the physical overworld, where they're subject to all the unpleasantness of both their home jurisdiction (in this case, Russia), and in some cases, the jurisdictions of those who are intent on their laws applying worldwide (such as governments like the United States -- who are absent from this particular case, but not others). No amount of condemnation on part of the EFF and declarations that "running an exit node is not a crime" is going to help Bogatov, where the Russian government has decided it will do what it takes to prove a point. This is how chilling effects work: when it endangers your own freedom and livelihood, you are forced to suddenly re-evaluate your priorities between big abstract issues like freedom of speech and whistleblower protection, vs. holding your head down and hoping you don't get caught up in something much bigger than yourself. It also proves that these anonymizing networks only function in a free society, and break down in the exact situations where they would be most needed.
- dandelion_lover 9y ago
  > All of these cryptographic dataflow concealer technologies have one very unpleasant failure mode i2p doesn't. It is a parallel dark-net.
WhitneyLand 9y ago
Why not make exit nodes only able to use secure protocols? Am I missing something or could thing whole problem be put to rest, at the same time the rest of the net is transitioning to https only.
- ludjer 9y ago
  wont change the fact that the originating IP is still the exit node. If you use tor and spam some https website the source IP will still be the exit nodes IP. Secure protocols cant hide the source IP(which is way more complicated, requires compromised router for a man in the middle attack, if TCP)
  - maerF0x0 9y ago
    what if TOR only served .onion sites?
  - WhitneyLand 9y ago
    Ok I see, your saying it's not just spying on clear text, they just wait for subversive propaganda to appear the force the site where it's posted to cough up the ip address. Maybe it would help if site took pains to not keep logs, but sometimes even that is difficult.

154 points by remx 9y ago

> Put simply: running a Tor exit node is not a crime In Russia? You sure about that? I wouldn't be, if I lived in Russia, and I'd be much less so today than yesterday. It wouldn't surprise me if this prosecution were intended to make a point, in the characteristically subtle style of the modern Russian government, that regardless of what any potentially relevant legislation might say, running an exit node, and by extension acting in ways that help conceal communications potentially of interest to the state, isn't a very good idea if you cherish whatever stability and comfort your daily life affords. The modern US government, on the other hand, has tended to be rather less blunt about making such points, and to choose different such points to make.

pg_is_a_butt 9y ago
Trump steaks are the best steaks.
wand3r 9y ago
> if you cherish whatever stability and comfort your daily life affords. I reckon this was their point rather than a rebuttal. They seem to believe it is legal as well as a right and they're going to at least try. Would I do run a tor node? Not in Russia and prob not in the US where I live. I am glad a global network of people are braver than I am.
- throwanem 9y ago
  Well, whether it's legal and whether it's a right - itself a concept of law, with no meaning outside that context - is up to the state, and the state doesn't seem thus far inclined to decide the question in their favor. Perhaps they will convince it otherwise.
  - supergarfield 9y ago
    Whether it's legal is certainly up to the state, but whether it's an ethical right just as certainly isn't. All rights aren't legal rights.
    - throwanem 9y ago
      Sure, if you're discussing the matter with someone who subscribes to the same system of ethics you do. Otherwise, if it matters to you that your interlocutor agree with you on whether and which ethical rights apply, you've got some convincing to do.
  - wand3r 9y ago
    Right. I meant that potentially they consulted lawyers / evaluated the law before making the claim. I have no idea if it is legal in Russia (and they may not either) but the quote seemed to be a statement which if levied at RU; hopefully has something backing it up
    - throwanem 9y ago
      I read that as a normative, not a positive, statement. If there's anything at all to suggest it be taken otherwise, I'd love to see a cite, because I've looked for one and not found it.

driverdan 9y ago

If you're going to run a Tor node at home make it a relay, not an exit. There is practically no risk to running a relay. Exits have risk because of situations like this. If you want to run exit nodes use a hosted server. It separates it from your normal traffic and makes it clear that it has a specific purpose.

phyzome 9y ago
You'll also get the occasional website that blocks or reduces services for you because they (or their IP reputation provider) doesn't understand Tor and grabs the entire list of relays. Notably, BrightCloud (Webroot) is such an ill-informed provider, and Dan's DNS blocklist offers both exit and relay lists (the latter is an attractive nuisance). Care2 is a consumer that blocks intermediate relays, although only on their http: traffic, not https:. (I'm guessing their SSL termination proxy messes up their IP detection!) The odd thing is that the Tor Project provides an easy to parse, up-to-date list of exits (https://check.torproject.org/exit-addresses https://check.torproject.org/exit-addresses) but these providers go to a lot of trouble to harvest bad data themselves.

c3534l 9y ago

TIL Kanye West is illegal in Russia.

alehul 9y ago

edit: please comment as opposed to downvote -- HN's value is civilized debate and information. I value privacy and support VPN use, but for some reason this seems different to me. Maybe something to do with a VPN being a company using servers to create an obvious layer of identity protection that police can generally subpoena when of importance. By running a Tor exit node, this individual was consciously allowing his IP address to be used for potentially malicious purposes. Why can't it easily be compared to someone making a cover for or assisting a criminal they don't know the identify of, which would be a crime if committed in person? Investigations lead back to him because he put himself in that position. analogy: VPNs seem like concealing your ID from everyone, however police can sometimes work to see it if a court deems it justifiable and necessary. Individuals running Tor exit nodes seem like being given someone else's ID instead, with no trace otherwise. Untraceable VPNs (ones unaffected by subpoenas) are somewhere in the middle, but the primary issue I see with this is the Tor system's use of someone else's ID rather than hiding your own (investigators are aware when they find a VPN service's IP).

cryptarch 9y ago
Are you also of the opinion that providing free wifi access is "assisting unknown criminals" and should be prosecuted?
- alehul 9y ago
  That's a good point. Wifi seems different in that it's somewhat traceable when necessary, and the person or institution would likely help with that in cases of serious issues, unlike willingly putting your personal identity at the end of an anonymized network you can't control the actions of. I support privacy in almost every case, but this even prevents actual subpoenas of serious magnitude or importance, and makes that individual the final point of contact, you know?
  - cryptarch 9y ago
    How exactly is wifi traceable? IP addresses of what is connected to can be hidden by proxies or anonymizing networks, or even just TLS. MAC addresses are spoofed routinely. It's wireless so fat chance it's reachable from places not under your surveillance, if you have any of that in the first place. I also don't agree that an IP address is your personal identity, I think that's a very harmful idea. I am not a computer and I just barely control part of what my machines do. Do you believe in the possibility of a risk-less society?

temp-dude-87844 9y ago

This is disturbing, but this is how the buck stops, isn't it? All of these cryptographic dataflow concealer technologies have one very unpleasant failure mode: somewhere they have to interface with the physical overworld, where they're subject to all the unpleasantness of both their home jurisdiction (in this case, Russia), and in some cases, the jurisdictions of those who are intent on their laws applying worldwide (such as governments like the United States -- who are absent from this particular case, but not others). No amount of condemnation on part of the EFF and declarations that "running an exit node is not a crime" is going to help Bogatov, where the Russian government has decided it will do what it takes to prove a point. This is how chilling effects work: when it endangers your own freedom and livelihood, you are forced to suddenly re-evaluate your priorities between big abstract issues like freedom of speech and whistleblower protection, vs. holding your head down and hoping you don't get caught up in something much bigger than yourself. It also proves that these anonymizing networks only function in a free society, and break down in the exact situations where they would be most needed.

dandelion_lover 9y ago
> All of these cryptographic dataflow concealer technologies have one very unpleasant failure mode i2p doesn't. It is a parallel dark-net.

WhitneyLand 9y ago

Why not make exit nodes only able to use secure protocols? Am I missing something or could thing whole problem be put to rest, at the same time the rest of the net is transitioning to https only.

ludjer 9y ago
wont change the fact that the originating IP is still the exit node. If you use tor and spam some https website the source IP will still be the exit nodes IP. Secure protocols cant hide the source IP(which is way more complicated, requires compromised router for a man in the middle attack, if TCP)
- maerF0x0 9y ago
  what if TOR only served .onion sites?
- WhitneyLand 9y ago
  Ok I see, your saying it's not just spying on clear text, they just wait for subversive propaganda to appear the force the site where it's posted to cough up the ip address. Maybe it would help if site took pains to not keep logs, but sometimes even that is difficult.