8 ms·

I thought this was going to be about the millions of oft-forgotten gypsies and other minority groups, not to mention communists and intellectuals, who were murd

by aedron 9y ago

I thought this was going to be about the millions of oft-forgotten gypsies and other minority groups, not to mention communists and intellectuals, who were murdered in nazi concentration camps along with Jews. Instead the article doesn't even mention them in passing.

pimeys 9y ago
Or sexual minorities, especially from Berlin, who were deported and killed in concentration camps.
beaconstudios 9y ago
also political prisoners, religious leaders and the mentally or physically handicapped. It's often underplayed how broadly the Nazis set their targets - they really were attempting to exterminate anyone and everyone who wasn't part of their "master race" ideology. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/27/holocaust-non-jewish-victims_n_6555604.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/27/holocaust-non-jewis...
- ericdykstra 9y ago
  About the 5 million... "Say those close to the late Nazi hunter Simon Wiesenthal, its progenitor, it is a number that was intended to increase sympathy for Jewish suffering but which now is more often used to obscure it." http://jewishjournal.com/news/nation/214283/remember-11-million/ http://jewishjournal.com/news/nation/214283/remember-11-mill...
  - beaconstudios 9y ago
    so what is the real number of non-Jewish victims? Or at least, the number we know about? The holocaust was about the Nazis reshaping German society in their image - justified by arguments of German supremacy. There's no denying that they held Jews in a category of their own, as Nazi propaganda painted them in all manner of horrible depictions and tried to blame them for the loss of the first World War, the collapse of the German economy and so many other things. But it seems inaccurate to deny either the victimisation of other demographic groups, or to deny that Jews were the primary target.
djulius 9y ago
I thought the same as you. The Wikipedia page on Holocaust victims (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims) has a list of the different groups targeted by the nazis. In addition to what other commenters have written there was also: freemasons, spanish republicans from the 36 revolution, soviet prisoner of wars, slovene and romani. Interesting to note that nazis killed as much ethnic poles as polish jews.
- adrianm 9y ago
  You're off by about 1.2 million people with your last remark.
- philh 9y ago
  > Interesting to note that nazis killed as much ethnic poles as polish jews. But also note that this was about 90% of polish jews, and something like 10-15% of ethnic poles. (90% from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Poland; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Poland; 10-15% back-of-the-envelope from that plus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims#Poles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims#Poles, giving a non-Jewish population of a little over 30,000,000.)
- redsummer 9y ago
  Why wasn't I taught this in school? I have to say, I've never seen a movie which explores this.
muse900 9y ago
My village in Greece was burned to the ground and the Nazis executed 30 people, including women and kids. I have a family member that fled when he was 12 y/o (now 86) with his brother, while his father, mother, sister and 2 brothers were executed. Yet nor he or his family were ever reimbursed or even acknowledged. Unfortunately he never made it big, nor he was lobbying in the US :( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kallikratis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kallikratis to whoever wants to read a bit more on that. If any blogger etc wants to get in touch with him (he has a lot of stories to tell) let me know. He won't charge or get paid, he'll just welcome you to his house and treat you. (I can also translate for free).
- expertentipp 9y ago
  > Yet nor he or his family were ever reimbursed or even acknowledged Native population of European countries, forced to "work" in German agriculture and industry, inhabitants of annihilated villages are the forgotten victims. There are no monuments to them, no lobby groups, they received no compensations except physical and mental, oftentimes fatal, traumas.
  - ashirusnw 9y ago
    This is true, but likewise the entirety of Europe and much of Asia and the Middle East suffered to. Here in the UK, no-one commemorates the British civilian victims of German Bombings, as one tiny example. Likewise civilian victims of other 20th century wars. WW2 was a western world international trauma with no-one unscathed, and various groups suffering to different unimaginable degrees. But the Holocaust, in its extreme brutality and relentless focus on racial genocide by a civilised Western nation, was a different level altogether.
    - mtempm 9y ago
      Undoubtedly a tragedy created by evil. I'm not so sure it is entirely different than anything else in the world, though. One example: Native American genocide by some estimates killed more people, though until 2017 the US Government still maintained a policy of refusing to acknowledge it even happened, even though they paid bounties per head killed. It appears this injustice of genocide denialism may even continue into the future.
lr4444lr 9y ago
The anti-Jewish implications in this comment and some of the follow-ups (that the article is at fault for something because it focuses too much on Jews, that Jews somehow uniquely manipulate government through lobbying, that Jews don't accept any debate about the exact "6 million" number in the dominant narrative) is palpable.
- _ak 9y ago
  There's actually an Israeli documentary about how American Jewish lobby organizations make comparing genocides a competition (of course insisting that the Holocaust was the worst, no matter what) and that their leaders and members often do this to compensate for lack of religiosity. So, yes, the Jewish lobbying efforts are unique, and uniquely successful. There's nothing wrong about it per se, but if it happens at the cost of remembering other Nazi victims, or victims of other genocides, things are definitely headed in the wrong direction.
  - lr4444lr 9y ago
    There were also "Israelis" who think Isreal's is an abomination because it is a Jewish state in existence without the Messiah. What is the existence of a documentary supposed to prove other than that in any group of people, there is a variety of opinion? The bias comes in how you cite, weight, and construe elements of this plurality. Not whether they exist.
    - _ak 9y ago
      Funny how you just focus on the existence of the documentary, and not on the contents of it which I paraphrased. I'm not talking about some fringe Extremist Haredi group, I'm talking about a mainstream Israeli film author closely following and critically introspecting the work of the ADL and their then-CEO.
      - lr4444lr 9y ago
        You haven't even given the title. What am I supposed to do, hunt down every reference you fail to cite to dispute a point no one is making - i.e. that countervailing narratives exist within groups on opinions they are assumed to have consensus about? Sorry, no. Burden of evidence for a documentary you vaguely allude is on you, and I'm happy for others to watch it and draw their own conclusions, because I've got to get to work.
redsummer 9y ago
It's incredible to contemplate the billions given in reparations to Israel, while Gypsies - who still live in complete destitution in a Europe - have not recieved a single penny.
Shivetya 9y ago
and this is only those someone with influence actually cares about. no one looks to identify the millions who died in the Soviet Union under Stalin. Nor is there any true accounting the horrors of what Japan did in China and Korea and there is what China did to itself. The deaths inflicted by the Nazi's were inexcusable but we cannot keep focusing on them alone if we are to have a true accounting and have people understand what leads to such outcomes.

by aedron 9y ago

pimeys 9y ago

Or sexual minorities, especially from Berlin, who were deported and killed in concentration camps.

beaconstudios 9y ago

also political prisoners, religious leaders and the mentally or physically handicapped. It's often underplayed how broadly the Nazis set their targets - they really were attempting to exterminate anyone and everyone who wasn't part of their "master race" ideology. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/27/holocaust-non-jewish-victims_n_6555604.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/27/holocaust-non-jewis...

ericdykstra 9y ago
About the 5 million... "Say those close to the late Nazi hunter Simon Wiesenthal, its progenitor, it is a number that was intended to increase sympathy for Jewish suffering but which now is more often used to obscure it." http://jewishjournal.com/news/nation/214283/remember-11-million/ http://jewishjournal.com/news/nation/214283/remember-11-mill...
- beaconstudios 9y ago
  so what is the real number of non-Jewish victims? Or at least, the number we know about? The holocaust was about the Nazis reshaping German society in their image - justified by arguments of German supremacy. There's no denying that they held Jews in a category of their own, as Nazi propaganda painted them in all manner of horrible depictions and tried to blame them for the loss of the first World War, the collapse of the German economy and so many other things. But it seems inaccurate to deny either the victimisation of other demographic groups, or to deny that Jews were the primary target.

djulius 9y ago

I thought the same as you. The Wikipedia page on Holocaust victims (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims) has a list of the different groups targeted by the nazis. In addition to what other commenters have written there was also: freemasons, spanish republicans from the 36 revolution, soviet prisoner of wars, slovene and romani. Interesting to note that nazis killed as much ethnic poles as polish jews.

adrianm 9y ago
You're off by about 1.2 million people with your last remark.
philh 9y ago
> Interesting to note that nazis killed as much ethnic poles as polish jews. But also note that this was about 90% of polish jews, and something like 10-15% of ethnic poles. (90% from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Poland; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Poland; 10-15% back-of-the-envelope from that plus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims#Poles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims#Poles, giving a non-Jewish population of a little over 30,000,000.)
redsummer 9y ago
Why wasn't I taught this in school? I have to say, I've never seen a movie which explores this.

muse900 9y ago

My village in Greece was burned to the ground and the Nazis executed 30 people, including women and kids. I have a family member that fled when he was 12 y/o (now 86) with his brother, while his father, mother, sister and 2 brothers were executed. Yet nor he or his family were ever reimbursed or even acknowledged. Unfortunately he never made it big, nor he was lobbying in the US :( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kallikratis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kallikratis to whoever wants to read a bit more on that. If any blogger etc wants to get in touch with him (he has a lot of stories to tell) let me know. He won't charge or get paid, he'll just welcome you to his house and treat you. (I can also translate for free).

expertentipp 9y ago
> Yet nor he or his family were ever reimbursed or even acknowledged Native population of European countries, forced to "work" in German agriculture and industry, inhabitants of annihilated villages are the forgotten victims. There are no monuments to them, no lobby groups, they received no compensations except physical and mental, oftentimes fatal, traumas.
- ashirusnw 9y ago
  This is true, but likewise the entirety of Europe and much of Asia and the Middle East suffered to. Here in the UK, no-one commemorates the British civilian victims of German Bombings, as one tiny example. Likewise civilian victims of other 20th century wars. WW2 was a western world international trauma with no-one unscathed, and various groups suffering to different unimaginable degrees. But the Holocaust, in its extreme brutality and relentless focus on racial genocide by a civilised Western nation, was a different level altogether.
  - mtempm 9y ago
    Undoubtedly a tragedy created by evil. I'm not so sure it is entirely different than anything else in the world, though. One example: Native American genocide by some estimates killed more people, though until 2017 the US Government still maintained a policy of refusing to acknowledge it even happened, even though they paid bounties per head killed. It appears this injustice of genocide denialism may even continue into the future.

lr4444lr 9y ago

The anti-Jewish implications in this comment and some of the follow-ups (that the article is at fault for something because it focuses too much on Jews, that Jews somehow uniquely manipulate government through lobbying, that Jews don't accept any debate about the exact "6 million" number in the dominant narrative) is palpable.

_ak 9y ago
There's actually an Israeli documentary about how American Jewish lobby organizations make comparing genocides a competition (of course insisting that the Holocaust was the worst, no matter what) and that their leaders and members often do this to compensate for lack of religiosity. So, yes, the Jewish lobbying efforts are unique, and uniquely successful. There's nothing wrong about it per se, but if it happens at the cost of remembering other Nazi victims, or victims of other genocides, things are definitely headed in the wrong direction.
- lr4444lr 9y ago
  There were also "Israelis" who think Isreal's is an abomination because it is a Jewish state in existence without the Messiah. What is the existence of a documentary supposed to prove other than that in any group of people, there is a variety of opinion? The bias comes in how you cite, weight, and construe elements of this plurality. Not whether they exist.
  - _ak 9y ago
    Funny how you just focus on the existence of the documentary, and not on the contents of it which I paraphrased. I'm not talking about some fringe Extremist Haredi group, I'm talking about a mainstream Israeli film author closely following and critically introspecting the work of the ADL and their then-CEO.
    - lr4444lr 9y ago
      You haven't even given the title. What am I supposed to do, hunt down every reference you fail to cite to dispute a point no one is making - i.e. that countervailing narratives exist within groups on opinions they are assumed to have consensus about? Sorry, no. Burden of evidence for a documentary you vaguely allude is on you, and I'm happy for others to watch it and draw their own conclusions, because I've got to get to work.

redsummer 9y ago

It's incredible to contemplate the billions given in reparations to Israel, while Gypsies - who still live in complete destitution in a Europe - have not recieved a single penny.

Shivetya 9y ago

and this is only those someone with influence actually cares about. no one looks to identify the millions who died in the Soviet Union under Stalin. Nor is there any true accounting the horrors of what Japan did in China and Korea and there is what China did to itself. The deaths inflicted by the Nazi's were inexcusable but we cannot keep focusing on them alone if we are to have a true accounting and have people understand what leads to such outcomes.