4 ms·

I understand what they're trying to do here, but beyond the problem of "fake news" there appears to be a deep crisis within the profession of Journalism itself.

I understand what they're trying to do here, but beyond the problem of "fake news" there appears to be a deep crisis within the profession of Journalism itself. Wales is correct, in my opinion, that the proximate cause of this crisis is indeed social media. (If you don't agree just ask yourself how often you visit the masthead of whatever newspaper you typically read, and why that might be the case.) But I just don't see crowd-sourcing as the solution to this problem. I'm inclined to agree with @intended's diagnosis, and I feel like the solution has to come from the profession of Journalism itself. So, in attempt to not be "that guy" that just complains here's what I'd suggest as a start. - Institutions need to drop their relationship with Facebook et al (The Guardian has just done this [1]). - There's a few places (and in the interest of avoiding starting a flame war, I'll forgo naming them explicitly) that parade themselves as "objective" sources of news by telling you they're explaining "complicated" concepts in digestible ways. In my view, that's just a rhetorical tactic to disguise what is actually just advocacy journalism. It's not objective at all, and seeks to form your opinion rather than present you with data from which you form your own. These places need to either be shut down, or pivot back to what we'd traditionally consider actual reporting. - I consider myself reasonably well read, and read the actual, physical paper daily (when I can, I suppose). There is a distinct difference between the content I see pushed on the internet and what's in the traditional paper and it's this: increasingly articles that belong on the opinion pages are pushed elsewhere, probably because they know it'll generate more clicks elsewhere on the site because it makes either a controversial or marginally supported claim. In my view this directly contributes to the loss of faith people have in the Journalistic profession because it's just so damn easy to point out instances of bias. So, hire some old school editors and fire the "social media" guy and put content where it belongs. That's just what I can think of off the top of my head right now, but I'm pretty convinced that "crowd-sourcing" is not the answer to this problem. [1] http://digiday.com/media/guardian-pulls-facebooks-instant-articles-apple-news/ http://digiday.com/media/guardian-pulls-facebooks-instant-ar...

hackuser 10y ago
> In my view this directly contributes to the loss of faith people have in the Journalistic profession I'd add that your second point also contributes to loss of faith: When propagandists call their publications journalism, and when other journalists treat them seriously, it brings down the credibility of all journalism. If any quack could call themself a heart surgeon then it would hurt the credibility of real heart surgeons. Also, when people see their side publishing propaganda, they assume that all journalism is propaganda: One side says this, the other says that, it's all the same (that thinking is an explicit goal of propaganda - not to persuade but to discredit everyone, leaving no source of truth). But it's not the same; truth has real meaning and value, an only liars say 'well, everyone lies'.
- smsm42 10y ago
  > If any quack could call themself a heart surgeon then it would hurt the credibility of real heart surgeons. I'm afraid here we have a different situation - where heart surgeon behaves as a quack because she thinks it would convince you to do things that she things are right for you. You, of course, can say "well, she's a surgeon, so she always knows better and I should not ever doubt her, even if what she says sounds like complete quackery". But many people are not ready to surrender their autonomy so readily.
smsm42 10y ago
> Wales is correct, in my opinion, that the proximate cause of this crisis is indeed social media. I don't think social media has much to do with it. I think the confusion between the professions of journalist, entertainer and partisan political operative has much more to do with it. > If you don't agree just ask yourself how often you visit the masthead of whatever newspaper Why would it be important if I visit the masthead? That's like saying libraries are in crisis because people don't spend enough time in the lobby. That's not why one visits the library! The frontpage is an utilitarian tool, and if people can do without it, nobody cares. > These places need to either be shut down I don't think they should be shut down. If there's an audience for them, why not? Nothing "should be shut down" - if it has no audience, it will die off, it it does have one - it should serve it. The problem here is the audience of "give us facts and let us form opinion" is woefully underserved. This is solved by creating, not shutting down. > So, hire some old school editors and fire the "social media" guy Social media guy didn't write that awfully biased article. Some "journalist" did, the social media guy just posted the link on twitter. So why the social media guy should suffer? "Journalists" that do bad job should be called out and shamed, and social media is not where the blame should go. Hard to believe, but twitter can be used for good too, if only people would want to...
- backpropaganda 10y ago
  Source of funding is the key. Social media enabled the idea that news could be free, and that's where the dominoes started falling. The signal to the news company is that they need to keep pushing out articles which people click on or share. The incentive of reputation and prestige got replaced by click-baity and virtue signalling.
  - smsm42 10y ago
    True to some measure, but not completely - there are still degrees of click-baity-ness and not all media companies are like buzzfeed or gawker and publish exclusively in the style of "15 reasons why your biases are completely justified and anybody who disagrees with you are evil, #8 will shock you!". There are media companies that make conscious effort to do better - it's just they think that doing better means shaping the news to help the audience to arrive to "right" conclusions. They think this is their social responsibility, not to inform, but to form "good" opinions and to destroy "bad" ones. Combined with natural grouthink that arises in organizations having no focus on thought diversity (which are pretty much all news orgs) it produces a very distinctive mindset, which, as I noted in other place, is not just about money - it's about doing what they genuinely perceive as the right thing. In essence, they think the masses are too stupid to be fed bare truth, and need to be put on a carefully selected diet of curated truths, half-truths and sometimes outright lies, in service of a noble goal. I'd like to have the informers back instead.

hackuser 10y ago

> In my view this directly contributes to the loss of faith people have in the Journalistic profession I'd add that your second point also contributes to loss of faith: When propagandists call their publications journalism, and when other journalists treat them seriously, it brings down the credibility of all journalism. If any quack could call themself a heart surgeon then it would hurt the credibility of real heart surgeons. Also, when people see their side publishing propaganda, they assume that all journalism is propaganda: One side says this, the other says that, it's all the same (that thinking is an explicit goal of propaganda - not to persuade but to discredit everyone, leaving no source of truth). But it's not the same; truth has real meaning and value, an only liars say 'well, everyone lies'.

smsm42 10y ago
> If any quack could call themself a heart surgeon then it would hurt the credibility of real heart surgeons. I'm afraid here we have a different situation - where heart surgeon behaves as a quack because she thinks it would convince you to do things that she things are right for you. You, of course, can say "well, she's a surgeon, so she always knows better and I should not ever doubt her, even if what she says sounds like complete quackery". But many people are not ready to surrender their autonomy so readily.

smsm42 10y ago

> Wales is correct, in my opinion, that the proximate cause of this crisis is indeed social media. I don't think social media has much to do with it. I think the confusion between the professions of journalist, entertainer and partisan political operative has much more to do with it. > If you don't agree just ask yourself how often you visit the masthead of whatever newspaper Why would it be important if I visit the masthead? That's like saying libraries are in crisis because people don't spend enough time in the lobby. That's not why one visits the library! The frontpage is an utilitarian tool, and if people can do without it, nobody cares. > These places need to either be shut down I don't think they should be shut down. If there's an audience for them, why not? Nothing "should be shut down" - if it has no audience, it will die off, it it does have one - it should serve it. The problem here is the audience of "give us facts and let us form opinion" is woefully underserved. This is solved by creating, not shutting down. > So, hire some old school editors and fire the "social media" guy Social media guy didn't write that awfully biased article. Some "journalist" did, the social media guy just posted the link on twitter. So why the social media guy should suffer? "Journalists" that do bad job should be called out and shamed, and social media is not where the blame should go. Hard to believe, but twitter can be used for good too, if only people would want to...

backpropaganda 10y ago
Source of funding is the key. Social media enabled the idea that news could be free, and that's where the dominoes started falling. The signal to the news company is that they need to keep pushing out articles which people click on or share. The incentive of reputation and prestige got replaced by click-baity and virtue signalling.
- smsm42 10y ago
  True to some measure, but not completely - there are still degrees of click-baity-ness and not all media companies are like buzzfeed or gawker and publish exclusively in the style of "15 reasons why your biases are completely justified and anybody who disagrees with you are evil, #8 will shock you!". There are media companies that make conscious effort to do better - it's just they think that doing better means shaping the news to help the audience to arrive to "right" conclusions. They think this is their social responsibility, not to inform, but to form "good" opinions and to destroy "bad" ones. Combined with natural grouthink that arises in organizations having no focus on thought diversity (which are pretty much all news orgs) it produces a very distinctive mindset, which, as I noted in other place, is not just about money - it's about doing what they genuinely perceive as the right thing. In essence, they think the masses are too stupid to be fed bare truth, and need to be put on a carefully selected diet of curated truths, half-truths and sometimes outright lies, in service of a noble goal. I'd like to have the informers back instead.