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I mean, I'm not entirely sure that moving from millions of small gas/diesel generators (which is, functionally, what modern cars are) to using the grid should b

I mean, I'm not entirely sure that moving from millions of small gas/diesel generators (which is, functionally, what modern cars are) to using the grid should be bashed because the current grid can't support it. That seems like a fully general argument against change. For instance, no one claims you shouldn't vote because, if everyone voted, then Americans would have intolerable wait times at polling places (they wouldn't handle that volume). It's true, but I think the expectation is that we'd expand capacity. At least power generation (unlike voting) is done for profit, so I don't see the concern.

jansho 9y ago
> the expectation is that we'd expand capacity Yes but electric cars are often touted to be the "green solution". What's the point if we're just going to have more - and we're talking about lots more - power stations? They still eat resources, and spout pollution. There's the nuclear option but hey..
- derefr 9y ago
  The thing you have to keep in mind is that, almost always, the bigger a generator is, the more efficient it is. Even if everyone's petrol-burning cars were swapped out for electric ones that were just as energy-intensive (i.e. required the same amount of joules of converted energy, to go the same distance, that petrol vehicles do) and then we took all that petrol, and burned it in a few big power-plants to generate that electricity... we'd still end up using less petrol. Because the big power plant would be far more efficient, in almost every sense, than the small ones in our cars. (Including senses like "sequesters more CO2.") And that's a pessimized case; in reality, electric cars get far better "miles per gallon" (more literally, miles per megajoule of stored energy) than petrol cars do. Look at (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_per_gallon_gasoline_equivalent#Examples https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_per_gallon_gasoline_equi...): if you converted one gallon of gasoline into electricity using a regular, inefficient petrol car engine, and then charged an electric car's batteries using that generated power, the electric car would go quite a bit further than the same amount of stored energy would have taken the petrol car. (This being what hybrid cars do: use a regular petrol engine to charge batteries, and then run off those batteries.) The two factors combined mean that there is every reason to centralize the generation of electricity. Even if we still burn petrol to generate all that electricity (unlikely), we'd still be burning far less petrol.
  - jansho 9y ago
    Thanks for this. I do like the idea of centralising the generation of electricity. But while I understand the economies of scale aspect, I still think that we may be over-simplifying the whole picture. Sure, we may have greener cars. But what are the costs of this? You know we're talking about changing the whole infrastructure - and that's messy, and painful, and can take many years. And there's a few other questions which are too loosely connected for now but nevertheless still quite nagging, like nuclear as a resource and the growing global population which inevitably means more drivers..
    - danans 9y ago
      > You know we're talking about changing the whole infrastructure - and that's messy, and painful, and can take many years. Not as painful as you might think, and it's already happening. At the home level, it's very straightforward to add a charging station to your house, and at the grid level utilities have been preparing for this for a while now, evidenced by the fact that they offer EV-specific rate plans to their customers. The harder part is public charging infrastructure, which is still too sparse, but it is less critical than gas stations because of home charging.
Reason077 9y ago
If all 26 million cars in the UK were replaced with electrics, overall grid demand would only increase by about 20%. Will the grid need to get smarter? Sure. Will we need to improve aspects of it in the coming years and decades to support electrification? Obviously. But the idea that the existing grid cannot be adapted to support widespread adoption of electric vehicles is absolutely false.
hatsunearu 9y ago
Hey, ho investment opportunity!

jansho 9y ago

> the expectation is that we'd expand capacity Yes but electric cars are often touted to be the "green solution". What's the point if we're just going to have more - and we're talking about lots more - power stations? They still eat resources, and spout pollution. There's the nuclear option but hey..

derefr 9y ago
The thing you have to keep in mind is that, almost always, the bigger a generator is, the more efficient it is. Even if everyone's petrol-burning cars were swapped out for electric ones that were just as energy-intensive (i.e. required the same amount of joules of converted energy, to go the same distance, that petrol vehicles do) and then we took all that petrol, and burned it in a few big power-plants to generate that electricity... we'd still end up using less petrol. Because the big power plant would be far more efficient, in almost every sense, than the small ones in our cars. (Including senses like "sequesters more CO2.") And that's a pessimized case; in reality, electric cars get far better "miles per gallon" (more literally, miles per megajoule of stored energy) than petrol cars do. Look at (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_per_gallon_gasoline_equivalent#Examples https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_per_gallon_gasoline_equi...): if you converted one gallon of gasoline into electricity using a regular, inefficient petrol car engine, and then charged an electric car's batteries using that generated power, the electric car would go quite a bit further than the same amount of stored energy would have taken the petrol car. (This being what hybrid cars do: use a regular petrol engine to charge batteries, and then run off those batteries.) The two factors combined mean that there is every reason to centralize the generation of electricity. Even if we still burn petrol to generate all that electricity (unlikely), we'd still be burning far less petrol.
- jansho 9y ago
  Thanks for this. I do like the idea of centralising the generation of electricity. But while I understand the economies of scale aspect, I still think that we may be over-simplifying the whole picture. Sure, we may have greener cars. But what are the costs of this? You know we're talking about changing the whole infrastructure - and that's messy, and painful, and can take many years. And there's a few other questions which are too loosely connected for now but nevertheless still quite nagging, like nuclear as a resource and the growing global population which inevitably means more drivers..
  - danans 9y ago
    > You know we're talking about changing the whole infrastructure - and that's messy, and painful, and can take many years. Not as painful as you might think, and it's already happening. At the home level, it's very straightforward to add a charging station to your house, and at the grid level utilities have been preparing for this for a while now, evidenced by the fact that they offer EV-specific rate plans to their customers. The harder part is public charging infrastructure, which is still too sparse, but it is less critical than gas stations because of home charging.

Reason077 9y ago

If all 26 million cars in the UK were replaced with electrics, overall grid demand would only increase by about 20%. Will the grid need to get smarter? Sure. Will we need to improve aspects of it in the coming years and decades to support electrification? Obviously. But the idea that the existing grid cannot be adapted to support widespread adoption of electric vehicles is absolutely false.

hatsunearu 9y ago

Hey, ho investment opportunity!