5 ms·

How does anyone, when asked to build such a program, not raise an objection, or say something? The ethical compromise made on behalf of all involved is startli

How does anyone, when asked to build such a program, not raise an objection, or say something? The ethical compromise made on behalf of all involved is startling, if this is true.

SamReidHughes 9y ago
Well I'd want to know, what is your basis for calling it an ethical compromise?
vkou 9y ago
I just send the rockets up, where they come down is not my department. Why do people build weapons? Why do people pay taxes, that are used to fund immoral actions? Why do people provide services to immoral actors? Typically, the answer is money.
- idoh 9y ago
  On the tax side, we neither have control over whether to pay taxes nor how it is spent, so that's not a reasonable example.
  - vkou 9y ago
    You could always move to a country which does not spend your money on behavior you object to.
    - toomuchtodo 9y ago
      Or take advantage of tax deductions and credits in your country so as to reduce or even eliminate your tax liability: US-specific: * EV credit: $7500 * Solar panels on your roof: 30% federal tax credit (some states have incentives as well) * Mortgage interest/insurance * Educational expenses * Charity contributions * Tax loss harvesting of non-tax advantaged investment accounts Some of the above require itemizing.
- saghm 9y ago
  > Why do people pay taxes, that are used to fund immoral actions? ... Typically, the answer is money. That seems like a stretch; people pay their taxes because they don't want to go to prison, not because of money. If anything, money would be an incentive not to pay your taxes, so it seems obvious that there's something stronger than money at play there.
  - pikzen 9y ago
    Or, in not-libertarian-land, people pay taxes because they enjoy having access to public services such as police, fire departments, working roads, water, etc.
    - metaphorm 9y ago
      the two positions aren't even a little contradictory. people pay taxes BOTH because they want to comply with the law (avoid prosecution) and because they value public services (some of them anyway). similarly, there is nuance in each position. self-preservation motivates avoidance of prosecution, but it doesn't prevent individuals and companies from seeking the most effective legal means to avoid taxes, which sometimes is in a grey area w.r.t law and ethics. as well we should consider that while some public services are considered good and desirable, many of them aren't, and which is good and which is not is a judgment that varies heavily between individuals. this isn't libertarian-land "taxes are theft" stuff. this is the basic social contract that everyone, libertarians and their opponents, all abide by.
    - saghm 9y ago
      Oh, don't get me wrong, I certainly feel a strong sense of civic duty to pay taxes, and I completely understand the benefit that comes from them. But from conversations with other people, I get the feeling that a large number of people would not pay taxes if they knew they could get away with this. Of course, now that I verbalize this, I'm realizing this could just be a sampling bias, as people who aren't upset about paying taxes are probably less likely to start a conversation about them.
- bdcravens 9y ago
  Are saying stakeholders aren't communicating the use case to the developers implementing these solutions?
cmahler7 9y ago
silicon valley has filled up with the types of money chasing individuals who would have once become investment bankers on wall street and brought similar morals with them
- nulagrithom 9y ago
  Today I was asked for the 10th damn time to build something that could expose a small amount of HIPAA data. The last 9 times I explained how building this feature would, at the least, require a security audit, but nobody understood why I was making such a big deal. Today, I almost said "Fuck it, if you want to make a blatantly negligent mistake then just reply to this email detailing once more how stupid this is and I'll just build it." If I get asked once more, I still might. Does that make me an unethical money chasing individual? I dunno, maybe. And maybe I'm wrong and it's not a big deal -- I honestly don't know if that feature is a HIPAA violation or not. But most of all, I just want to keep my job and keep feeding my family. I wouldn't be too quick to condemn the people that wrote this for Uber.
  - SamReidHughes 9y ago
    What boggles my mind is the notion that a potential HIPAA violation is some grand immorality. It's just information about somebody. It's nice to keep secret, but no great loss to society if it was made public.
    - fidget 9y ago
      Please let me know where you work, so I can avoid any product potentially produced by you.
    - Crito 9y ago
      Wow, you're a real piece of work.
      - SamReidHughes 9y ago
        If you can explain why it's so bad somebody's medical info gets leaked out, I'm all ears. As far as I can tell HIPAA makes medicine more expensive. That's bad! What if you could opt in to healthcare that was 20% cheaper, but was only subject to contractual promises of medical privacy, not the HIPAA. Would you take the deal?
rglover 9y ago
It starts with "M" and ends with "oney."
- 5ilv3r 9y ago
  Monotony! EDIT: Damn, e
- pthreads 9y ago
  More Money!!!!
- mvindahl 9y ago
  Milk & honey
JustSomeNobody 9y ago
Just because you write code, doesn't make you any more morally sound than the person who asks you to write code.
zenlikethat 9y ago
Who says no one raised an objection or said something? Even on mundane decisions unrelated to ethics, I've seen engineers object to things and get overruled. If you continue digging in your heels, the leadership will simply fire you or move you to another team and get someone else to do it. If you did have strong ethical objections, it's likely you just left the company. Why stay at something where no one else shares your ethics? So the moral vacuum is somewhat self-reinforcing. Besides all that, it's a lot easier to sit in a place of judgment when you weren't involved than, say, in a position where you needed the job to put food on the table for your family.
sanjoy_das 9y ago
I can never understand this attitude. Programmers are people -- why is it surprising that some of them are ethically flexible?

How does anyone, when asked to build such a program, not raise an objection, or say something? The ethical compromise made on behalf of all involved is startling, if this is true.

SamReidHughes 9y ago

Well I'd want to know, what is your basis for calling it an ethical compromise?

vkou 9y ago

I just send the rockets up, where they come down is not my department. Why do people build weapons? Why do people pay taxes, that are used to fund immoral actions? Why do people provide services to immoral actors? Typically, the answer is money.

idoh 9y ago
On the tax side, we neither have control over whether to pay taxes nor how it is spent, so that's not a reasonable example.
- vkou 9y ago
  You could always move to a country which does not spend your money on behavior you object to.
  - toomuchtodo 9y ago
    Or take advantage of tax deductions and credits in your country so as to reduce or even eliminate your tax liability: US-specific: * EV credit: $7500 * Solar panels on your roof: 30% federal tax credit (some states have incentives as well) * Mortgage interest/insurance * Educational expenses * Charity contributions * Tax loss harvesting of non-tax advantaged investment accounts Some of the above require itemizing.
saghm 9y ago
> Why do people pay taxes, that are used to fund immoral actions? ... Typically, the answer is money. That seems like a stretch; people pay their taxes because they don't want to go to prison, not because of money. If anything, money would be an incentive not to pay your taxes, so it seems obvious that there's something stronger than money at play there.
- pikzen 9y ago
  Or, in not-libertarian-land, people pay taxes because they enjoy having access to public services such as police, fire departments, working roads, water, etc.
  - metaphorm 9y ago
    the two positions aren't even a little contradictory. people pay taxes BOTH because they want to comply with the law (avoid prosecution) and because they value public services (some of them anyway). similarly, there is nuance in each position. self-preservation motivates avoidance of prosecution, but it doesn't prevent individuals and companies from seeking the most effective legal means to avoid taxes, which sometimes is in a grey area w.r.t law and ethics. as well we should consider that while some public services are considered good and desirable, many of them aren't, and which is good and which is not is a judgment that varies heavily between individuals. this isn't libertarian-land "taxes are theft" stuff. this is the basic social contract that everyone, libertarians and their opponents, all abide by.
  - saghm 9y ago
    Oh, don't get me wrong, I certainly feel a strong sense of civic duty to pay taxes, and I completely understand the benefit that comes from them. But from conversations with other people, I get the feeling that a large number of people would not pay taxes if they knew they could get away with this. Of course, now that I verbalize this, I'm realizing this could just be a sampling bias, as people who aren't upset about paying taxes are probably less likely to start a conversation about them.
bdcravens 9y ago
Are saying stakeholders aren't communicating the use case to the developers implementing these solutions?

cmahler7 9y ago

silicon valley has filled up with the types of money chasing individuals who would have once become investment bankers on wall street and brought similar morals with them

nulagrithom 9y ago
Today I was asked for the 10th damn time to build something that could expose a small amount of HIPAA data. The last 9 times I explained how building this feature would, at the least, require a security audit, but nobody understood why I was making such a big deal. Today, I almost said "Fuck it, if you want to make a blatantly negligent mistake then just reply to this email detailing once more how stupid this is and I'll just build it." If I get asked once more, I still might. Does that make me an unethical money chasing individual? I dunno, maybe. And maybe I'm wrong and it's not a big deal -- I honestly don't know if that feature is a HIPAA violation or not. But most of all, I just want to keep my job and keep feeding my family. I wouldn't be too quick to condemn the people that wrote this for Uber.
- SamReidHughes 9y ago
  What boggles my mind is the notion that a potential HIPAA violation is some grand immorality. It's just information about somebody. It's nice to keep secret, but no great loss to society if it was made public.
  - fidget 9y ago
    Please let me know where you work, so I can avoid any product potentially produced by you.
  - Crito 9y ago
    Wow, you're a real piece of work.
    - SamReidHughes 9y ago
      If you can explain why it's so bad somebody's medical info gets leaked out, I'm all ears. As far as I can tell HIPAA makes medicine more expensive. That's bad! What if you could opt in to healthcare that was 20% cheaper, but was only subject to contractual promises of medical privacy, not the HIPAA. Would you take the deal?

rglover 9y ago

It starts with "M" and ends with "oney."

5ilv3r 9y ago
Monotony! EDIT: Damn, e
pthreads 9y ago
More Money!!!!
mvindahl 9y ago
Milk & honey

JustSomeNobody 9y ago

Just because you write code, doesn't make you any more morally sound than the person who asks you to write code.

zenlikethat 9y ago

Who says no one raised an objection or said something? Even on mundane decisions unrelated to ethics, I've seen engineers object to things and get overruled. If you continue digging in your heels, the leadership will simply fire you or move you to another team and get someone else to do it. If you did have strong ethical objections, it's likely you just left the company. Why stay at something where no one else shares your ethics? So the moral vacuum is somewhat self-reinforcing. Besides all that, it's a lot easier to sit in a place of judgment when you weren't involved than, say, in a position where you needed the job to put food on the table for your family.

sanjoy_das 9y ago

I can never understand this attitude. Programmers are people -- why is it surprising that some of them are ethically flexible?