4 ms·

A train is probably the optimal situation for deterring a large group with only a handgun, assuming you have a chance to draw before they swarm you. Long strai

A train is probably the optimal situation for deterring a large group with only a handgun, assuming you have a chance to draw before they swarm you. Long straight lines, plenty of bodies in a row, ~10-15 rounds, and you could probably cut that 60 number down into the 40's surprisingly quickly. Depends on how crowded the train is in general though.

jacquesm 10y ago
And kill a couple of innocent commuters with your ricochets and misses. Or did you think that your ability to tell the 16 year old that wasn't part of it from the 16 year that was when you're in a hurry mowing people down was still functioning? Life isn't a FPS. I hope that if I'm ever in the subway and it's robbed that you are not in the same car, same for any other dirty Harry wannabe's. Better to hand over my wallet and cell phone than to end up with a bullet from a well meaning bystander.
- jimmyk 10y ago
  It's estimated that guns are used defensively (not necessarily fired) by private individuals hundreds of thousands of times per year in the US, and yet we don't see an epidemic of innocent bystanders being accidentally shot. Why do you think that might be? Could it be that your characterization of concealed carriers as "dirty Harry wannabe's" is wildly inaccurate?
  - jacquesm 10y ago
    Read that comment again: the guy is seriously considering going on a shooting spree with a train full of commuters and robbers. What do you think the chances are of that working out? Do you think this upstanding citizen and class-A marksman will be able to place '10 to 15 rounds' (his words, not mine) with the precision required not to injure anybody else? http://americablog.com/2013/02/vigilante-walmart-shopper-opens-fire-on-shoplifter-hits-three-cars.html http://americablog.com/2013/02/vigilante-walmart-shopper-ope... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3252074/Police-looking-vigilante-carjacking-witness-shot-thieves-accidentally-hit-victim-head-fleeing-scene.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3252074/Police-looki... (uk) http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/264755/carjacking-gone-wrong-houston-texas/ http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/264755/carjacking-gone-wrong... http://www.masslive.com/opinion/index.ssf/2015/10/vigilantes_worry_even_gun_inst.html http://www.masslive.com/opinion/index.ssf/2015/10/vigilantes... How many links do you want? Those were much less complex situations. And you think putting all that in a crowded subway car is going to improve matters?
    - jimmyk 10y ago
      I don't think he was suggesting it would be a good idea to start unloading into the mob, only that it would be very effective in reducing the mob's numbers compared to other situations where the mob is more free to move around. >How many links do you want? Just 1, but this time to statistics. I didn't suggest no one has ever been hit accidentally in a defensive shooting, just that it's incredibly rare compared to the amount of times guns are used in self defense, and not worth fear mongering about by suggesting concealed carriers are dirty Harry wannabe's.
- at-fates-hands 10y ago
  > And kill a couple of innocent commuters with your ricochets and misses. Ever been in a situation where someone shoots at someone else? Ever been in a bar when you start hearing shots fired? All it would take would be one gunshot and one person hitting the deck and it would be chaos. As soon as someone pulls a gun, people GTFO of that area. They don't continue to mind their own business or continue to try and rob someone, they're too busy trying to flee the scene and get to safety. source: I've been in a packed bar twice when someone has pulled a handgun and started firing.
dragonwriter 10y ago
> A train is probably the optimal situation for deterring a large group with only a handgun, assuming you have a chance to draw before they swarm you. It's ideal for deterring if you can draw before they enter. It's ideal for gunning down attackers (and, if you aren't an excellent shot, bystanders) in great number if you draw once they are on the train, but successful deterrence in that case requires no one to panic and fight when confronted in a crowded situation with limited exits, which is highly unreliable. You seem to be thinking that mobs are rational, so that an optimal killing ground is also an optimal deterrence setting.
- AcerbicZero 10y ago
  I should clarify, I wrote that comment with a fair amount of tongue in cheek. However, I do want to make it clear that if you draw your concealed firearm, you do it with the intent to use it, not to brandish it as a form of deterrence. If there is any option on the table to avoid drawing, then you leave it in the holster.

jacquesm 10y ago

And kill a couple of innocent commuters with your ricochets and misses. Or did you think that your ability to tell the 16 year old that wasn't part of it from the 16 year that was when you're in a hurry mowing people down was still functioning? Life isn't a FPS. I hope that if I'm ever in the subway and it's robbed that you are not in the same car, same for any other dirty Harry wannabe's. Better to hand over my wallet and cell phone than to end up with a bullet from a well meaning bystander.

jimmyk 10y ago
It's estimated that guns are used defensively (not necessarily fired) by private individuals hundreds of thousands of times per year in the US, and yet we don't see an epidemic of innocent bystanders being accidentally shot. Why do you think that might be? Could it be that your characterization of concealed carriers as "dirty Harry wannabe's" is wildly inaccurate?
- jacquesm 10y ago
  Read that comment again: the guy is seriously considering going on a shooting spree with a train full of commuters and robbers. What do you think the chances are of that working out? Do you think this upstanding citizen and class-A marksman will be able to place '10 to 15 rounds' (his words, not mine) with the precision required not to injure anybody else? http://americablog.com/2013/02/vigilante-walmart-shopper-opens-fire-on-shoplifter-hits-three-cars.html http://americablog.com/2013/02/vigilante-walmart-shopper-ope... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3252074/Police-looking-vigilante-carjacking-witness-shot-thieves-accidentally-hit-victim-head-fleeing-scene.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3252074/Police-looki... (uk) http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/264755/carjacking-gone-wrong-houston-texas/ http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/264755/carjacking-gone-wrong... http://www.masslive.com/opinion/index.ssf/2015/10/vigilantes_worry_even_gun_inst.html http://www.masslive.com/opinion/index.ssf/2015/10/vigilantes... How many links do you want? Those were much less complex situations. And you think putting all that in a crowded subway car is going to improve matters?
  - jimmyk 10y ago
    I don't think he was suggesting it would be a good idea to start unloading into the mob, only that it would be very effective in reducing the mob's numbers compared to other situations where the mob is more free to move around. >How many links do you want? Just 1, but this time to statistics. I didn't suggest no one has ever been hit accidentally in a defensive shooting, just that it's incredibly rare compared to the amount of times guns are used in self defense, and not worth fear mongering about by suggesting concealed carriers are dirty Harry wannabe's.
at-fates-hands 10y ago
> And kill a couple of innocent commuters with your ricochets and misses. Ever been in a situation where someone shoots at someone else? Ever been in a bar when you start hearing shots fired? All it would take would be one gunshot and one person hitting the deck and it would be chaos. As soon as someone pulls a gun, people GTFO of that area. They don't continue to mind their own business or continue to try and rob someone, they're too busy trying to flee the scene and get to safety. source: I've been in a packed bar twice when someone has pulled a handgun and started firing.

dragonwriter 10y ago

> A train is probably the optimal situation for deterring a large group with only a handgun, assuming you have a chance to draw before they swarm you. It's ideal for deterring if you can draw before they enter. It's ideal for gunning down attackers (and, if you aren't an excellent shot, bystanders) in great number if you draw once they are on the train, but successful deterrence in that case requires no one to panic and fight when confronted in a crowded situation with limited exits, which is highly unreliable. You seem to be thinking that mobs are rational, so that an optimal killing ground is also an optimal deterrence setting.

AcerbicZero 10y ago
I should clarify, I wrote that comment with a fair amount of tongue in cheek. However, I do want to make it clear that if you draw your concealed firearm, you do it with the intent to use it, not to brandish it as a form of deterrence. If there is any option on the table to avoid drawing, then you leave it in the holster.