5 ms·

> If I bought the game in 1989 I can still legally play it in digital form, yes? No, that's not how copyright works. That's a myth. In some cases you can make

by aplose 9y ago

> If I bought the game in 1989 I can still legally play it in digital form, yes? No, that's not how copyright works. That's a myth. In some cases you can make a backup of the game if you do it yourself. But you still can't download someone else's copy. > I'm not sure why copyright now means a company can charge me 100 times for the same product in different forms. Because copyright means the company that sold you the product retains the right to copy it. That's not a right you bought when you paid for the game. > It didn't used to and I'm not sure how this changed mindset in any way helps creators or society. I'm not sure it's been a help either. Someone should change the laws to align them with modern society. But this isn't the way to do it.

binarymax 9y ago
Your first point is not so clear cut. A ROM is a ROM is a ROM. Do you have any citations where you own a physical copy and use an identical digital copy from a different physical source a breach of copyright?
- mathgeek 9y ago
  Not sure about the legality of downloading it, but it's established that providing it (uploading it to someone else) is where you're usually in hot water.
- UnfalseDesign 9y ago
  > Do you have any citations where you own a physical copy and use an identical digital copy from a different physical source a breach of copyright? https://www.nintendo.com/corp/legal.jsp#copy_illegal https://www.nintendo.com/corp/legal.jsp#copy_illegal
  - Karunamon 9y ago
    The party in question saying "Yes yes, that's illegal" isn't worth the bytes used to transmit the message.
    - UnfalseDesign 9y ago
      I see your point. However, these are the lawyers of the party that sold their consumers the license to play the game. Remember, you don't actually own the game. You own a license to play the game on the medium you purchased. If the company that sold you the license also says that copying the game to a different medium and playing it there is not part of the original license, they kind of are allowed to say that. Note: I'm not saying I like it! I'm just saying it is the way it is.
      - chc 9y ago
        This "you have no rights but what we decide you have" view of ownership is what Nintendo would like you to think, but it's untrue in varying degrees depending on jurisdiction.
      - Karunamon 9y ago
        You own a license to play the game on the medium you purchased. Copyright law in the US includes the concept of fair use, which includes rights that the owner doesn't get a say in. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/107 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/107
  - chc 9y ago
    That's not a very useful citation. Nintendo takes an extremely expansive view of copyright (for example, they try to prevent commentators from using clips from their games in YouTube videos), is not an authoritative source, and is not exactly an impartial commentator on this matter.
    - UnfalseDesign 9y ago
      I didn't mean it as a source of commentary on the matter. I meant it as a statement on the legality of making copies from the company that sold the licenses for playing the games to the general public.
      - chc 9y ago
        If I say you are legally obligated to give me $100 if you read my comments, and link to the comment where I said it as proof that you're obligated, will you believe you're obligated to give me $100? I own the copyright on my writings, after all. Copyright holders are not gods. The idea that their word is gospel is patently false. And in the specific case of Nintendo, they are even less reliable then most in terms of accurately communicating your rights to you. Nintendo have very little respect for copyright law as it actually exists, and instead try to assert whatever rights they wish they had and hope nobody fights them on it.
        UnfalseDesign 9y ago
        Reading over your response, I think we are talking about two different things. You appear to be talking about copyright protection. Remember that when you purchase a game, you don't purchase the copyright. You purchase a license to play a copyrighted game on a particular medium. (That part of the game instruction manual we all skipped past as kids.) I don't have access to one of those licenses at the moment but if you happen to have one of them from one of the old NES games, I would be very interested in knowing if it has a section that states that the consumer has a right to backup the game onto another medium and play it there. Again, you seem to be talking about copyright. I'm talking about the legal rights of the consumer when they purchased the license (game) from Nintendo. This is a good discussion, though.
- khedoros1 9y ago
  You're permitted to make your own archival copy, or allow someone to make an archival copy for you, from your physical copy of the software. Apparently, "the new copy is being made for archival (i.e., backup) purposes only". It sounds like you aren't permitted to run the backup copy, although I'd assume that if the original copy were destroyed, you'd be within your rights to write the backup to a blank cartridge, or something. Nintendo's interpretation is some real B.S. though. Basically, that copying devices are illegal, emulators are illegal, and so on. > A ROM is a ROM is a ROM. Legally, from my understanding, there's also metadata about the provenance of the data. Where did it come from? Did you read it from a memory chip yourself, or download it from the internet? The data could be identical, but is the data legal if it was acquired illegally?
- thefalcon 9y ago
  It's good enough for Nintendo: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2017-01-18-did-nintendo-download-a-mario-rom-and-sell-it-back-to-us http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2017-01-18-did-nintendo-do...
- acheron 9y ago
  Do you have any citations where you own a physical copy and use an identical digital copy from a different physical source a breach of copyright? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UMG_Recordings,_Inc._v._MP3.com,_Inc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UMG_Recordings,_Inc._v._MP3.co....
micahbright 9y ago
https://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-digital.html https://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-digital.html "Under section 117, you or someone you authorize may make a copy of an original computer program if: the new copy is being made for archival (i.e., backup) purposes only; you are the legal owner of the copy; and any copy made for archival purposes is either destroyed, or transferred with the original copy, once the original copy is sold, given away, or otherwise transferred." Someone can do it for you. Also, this doesn't even have anything to do with copyright since it is actually like your friend letting you play a copy of his nintendo with a copy of his game. Totally different paradigm.
- hcs 9y ago
  IANAL, but: Someone else can do it with the legitimate copy you own, e.g. I take my cartridge to the copy shop and the tech copies it to a floppy for me. The fact that someone online could send me exactly the same data is irrelevant. Legally I'm pretty sure that lending a physical copy and making a digital copy are incomparable. And to be sure, a copy is made when the server sends you the ROM.
  - micahbright 9y ago
    https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/117 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/117 "(a)Making of Additional Copy or Adaptation by Owner of Copy.—Notwithstanding the provisions of section 106, it is not an infringement for the owner of a copy of a computer program to make or authorize the making of another copy or adaptation of that computer program provided: (1) that such a new copy or adaptation is created as an essential step in the utilization of the computer program in conjunction with a machine and that it is used in no other manner, or (2) that such new copy or adaptation is for archival purposes only and that all archival copies are destroyed in the event that continued possession of the computer program should cease to be rightful." Where does it say that the copy must come from your original? If two people own the program, one may make a copy of his/her original for the other because the others original may have been destroyed. Remember, this law was written in the days of cds, records, etc. It is clear that you can lend an original copy but not an archival copy. If you lend the original copy, you physically cannot be using it(needless to say, you cannot legally use your archival copy while you are lending you original copy).
celticninja 9y ago
However I cannot make a backup of a NES/SNES cartridge that I legally own so this is the only method open to most people to actually obtain a digital backup of software they legally own.
- LocalH 9y ago
  There exist cart copiers, and not just the old ones. It is legally possible to dump your own games.

by aplose 9y ago

binarymax 9y ago

Your first point is not so clear cut. A ROM is a ROM is a ROM. Do you have any citations where you own a physical copy and use an identical digital copy from a different physical source a breach of copyright?

mathgeek 9y ago
Not sure about the legality of downloading it, but it's established that providing it (uploading it to someone else) is where you're usually in hot water.
UnfalseDesign 9y ago
> Do you have any citations where you own a physical copy and use an identical digital copy from a different physical source a breach of copyright? https://www.nintendo.com/corp/legal.jsp#copy_illegal https://www.nintendo.com/corp/legal.jsp#copy_illegal
- Karunamon 9y ago
  The party in question saying "Yes yes, that's illegal" isn't worth the bytes used to transmit the message.
  - UnfalseDesign 9y ago
    I see your point. However, these are the lawyers of the party that sold their consumers the license to play the game. Remember, you don't actually own the game. You own a license to play the game on the medium you purchased. If the company that sold you the license also says that copying the game to a different medium and playing it there is not part of the original license, they kind of are allowed to say that. Note: I'm not saying I like it! I'm just saying it is the way it is.
    - chc 9y ago
      This "you have no rights but what we decide you have" view of ownership is what Nintendo would like you to think, but it's untrue in varying degrees depending on jurisdiction.
    - Karunamon 9y ago
      You own a license to play the game on the medium you purchased. Copyright law in the US includes the concept of fair use, which includes rights that the owner doesn't get a say in. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/107 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/107
- chc 9y ago
  That's not a very useful citation. Nintendo takes an extremely expansive view of copyright (for example, they try to prevent commentators from using clips from their games in YouTube videos), is not an authoritative source, and is not exactly an impartial commentator on this matter.
  - UnfalseDesign 9y ago
    I didn't mean it as a source of commentary on the matter. I meant it as a statement on the legality of making copies from the company that sold the licenses for playing the games to the general public.
    - chc 9y ago
      If I say you are legally obligated to give me $100 if you read my comments, and link to the comment where I said it as proof that you're obligated, will you believe you're obligated to give me $100? I own the copyright on my writings, after all. Copyright holders are not gods. The idea that their word is gospel is patently false. And in the specific case of Nintendo, they are even less reliable then most in terms of accurately communicating your rights to you. Nintendo have very little respect for copyright law as it actually exists, and instead try to assert whatever rights they wish they had and hope nobody fights them on it.
      - UnfalseDesign 9y ago
        Reading over your response, I think we are talking about two different things. You appear to be talking about copyright protection. Remember that when you purchase a game, you don't purchase the copyright. You purchase a license to play a copyrighted game on a particular medium. (That part of the game instruction manual we all skipped past as kids.) I don't have access to one of those licenses at the moment but if you happen to have one of them from one of the old NES games, I would be very interested in knowing if it has a section that states that the consumer has a right to backup the game onto another medium and play it there. Again, you seem to be talking about copyright. I'm talking about the legal rights of the consumer when they purchased the license (game) from Nintendo. This is a good discussion, though.
khedoros1 9y ago
You're permitted to make your own archival copy, or allow someone to make an archival copy for you, from your physical copy of the software. Apparently, "the new copy is being made for archival (i.e., backup) purposes only". It sounds like you aren't permitted to run the backup copy, although I'd assume that if the original copy were destroyed, you'd be within your rights to write the backup to a blank cartridge, or something. Nintendo's interpretation is some real B.S. though. Basically, that copying devices are illegal, emulators are illegal, and so on. > A ROM is a ROM is a ROM. Legally, from my understanding, there's also metadata about the provenance of the data. Where did it come from? Did you read it from a memory chip yourself, or download it from the internet? The data could be identical, but is the data legal if it was acquired illegally?
thefalcon 9y ago
It's good enough for Nintendo: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2017-01-18-did-nintendo-download-a-mario-rom-and-sell-it-back-to-us http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2017-01-18-did-nintendo-do...
acheron 9y ago
Do you have any citations where you own a physical copy and use an identical digital copy from a different physical source a breach of copyright? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UMG_Recordings,_Inc._v._MP3.com,_Inc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UMG_Recordings,_Inc._v._MP3.co....

micahbright 9y ago

https://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-digital.html https://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-digital.html "Under section 117, you or someone you authorize may make a copy of an original computer program if: the new copy is being made for archival (i.e., backup) purposes only; you are the legal owner of the copy; and any copy made for archival purposes is either destroyed, or transferred with the original copy, once the original copy is sold, given away, or otherwise transferred." Someone can do it for you. Also, this doesn't even have anything to do with copyright since it is actually like your friend letting you play a copy of his nintendo with a copy of his game. Totally different paradigm.

hcs 9y ago
IANAL, but: Someone else can do it with the legitimate copy you own, e.g. I take my cartridge to the copy shop and the tech copies it to a floppy for me. The fact that someone online could send me exactly the same data is irrelevant. Legally I'm pretty sure that lending a physical copy and making a digital copy are incomparable. And to be sure, a copy is made when the server sends you the ROM.
- micahbright 9y ago
  https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/117 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/117 "(a)Making of Additional Copy or Adaptation by Owner of Copy.—Notwithstanding the provisions of section 106, it is not an infringement for the owner of a copy of a computer program to make or authorize the making of another copy or adaptation of that computer program provided: (1) that such a new copy or adaptation is created as an essential step in the utilization of the computer program in conjunction with a machine and that it is used in no other manner, or (2) that such new copy or adaptation is for archival purposes only and that all archival copies are destroyed in the event that continued possession of the computer program should cease to be rightful." Where does it say that the copy must come from your original? If two people own the program, one may make a copy of his/her original for the other because the others original may have been destroyed. Remember, this law was written in the days of cds, records, etc. It is clear that you can lend an original copy but not an archival copy. If you lend the original copy, you physically cannot be using it(needless to say, you cannot legally use your archival copy while you are lending you original copy).

celticninja 9y ago

However I cannot make a backup of a NES/SNES cartridge that I legally own so this is the only method open to most people to actually obtain a digital backup of software they legally own.

LocalH 9y ago
There exist cart copiers, and not just the old ones. It is legally possible to dump your own games.