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I didn't see the original article, but he was tossed a softball. The issues quoted in his response are so cliché. React is great, and judging by the growing ec

I didn't see the original article, but he was tossed a softball. The issues quoted in his response are so cliché. React is great, and judging by the growing ecosystem, many people agree. If you don't like it because it requires you to learn a workflow you are unfamiliar with, don't use it.

eganist 9y ago
> If you don't like it because it requires you to learn a workflow you are unfamiliar with, don't use it. Unrelated to the technical side (which I haven't investigated in much depth yet as a third party to this discussion), I don't like it because of the patent license, which AFAICR is a valid concern for a non-trivial number of large firms. https://github.com/facebook/react/blob/master/PATENTS https://github.com/facebook/react/blob/master/PATENTS
- peller 9y ago
  If this is a concern, maybe you could just use something like preact as a drop-in replacement for react? https://github.com/developit/preact https://github.com/developit/preact
  - bryanlarsen 9y ago
    How would that help? If Facebook has any patents on React, it's quite likely that preact is violating them. If you're using React then you're protected by the patent grant. If you're using preact then you aren't.
    - peller 9y ago
      Well, please correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it by using React you're essentially giving up your right to sue FB for infringement of any of your patents (assuming you wish to keep using React). True, by using something like preact I suppose there is the alternative risk you pointed out. But perhaps it's a tradeoff some businesses might find acceptable.
      - TheCoelacanth 9y ago
        You don't give up the right to sue them; you just lose the patent license if you do. If you use preact, you don't have the patent license at all, so you are in the same situation as if you used React and sued them over patents.
        peller 9y ago
        Ah OK, thanks for the clarification. I stand corrected.
- acemarke 9y ago
  You might want to look at the official Facebook FAQ regarding that PATENTS clause ( https://code.facebook.com/pages/850928938376556 https://code.facebook.com/pages/850928938376556 ), as well as this legal analysis: http://lu.is/blog/2016/10/31/reacts-license-necessary-and-open/ http://lu.is/blog/2016/10/31/reacts-license-necessary-and-op... . I also have links to further discussion on the PATENTS clause in my React links list: https://github.com/markerikson/react-redux-links/blob/master/pros-cons-discussion.md#reacts-patents-license https://github.com/markerikson/react-redux-links/blob/master... .
  - eganist 9y ago
    Tons of large firms patent everything under the sun, Facebook included. There's no telling when those will come in conflict, and I don't want to be on the wrong side of that battle just to use a framework with alternatives available. I can look at external analyses, but the firms I've spoken with have had their own IP folks examine it and have each made their own decisions, so I'm merely parroting the accounts of those I've spoken to. Edit: my initial comment (thread root) sits in the negatives but this one is high in the positives. It's interesting observing what I can only conclude is a proxy battle between the technical crowd and the crowd that understands legal realities.
  - yladiz 9y ago
    The problem with the patents clause is that it's too broad wrt patents. If you have a valid patent that Facebook is infringing upon, no matter if it relates to React, Facebook revokes your right to use React. That's their prerogative, but it is generally too broad to allow some companies to actually use the library.
    - davidjnelson 9y ago
      That would be awful. Has this ever been used by Facebook, where a company had to strip react out?
      - spicyj 9y ago
        No.
- jhall1468 9y ago
  There are teams at Amazon and Google that use React. Honestly, the original patent license had some issues, but the new license seems to have alleviated concern for 2 of the remaining big 4. I don't know if MS uses it, but honestly 2/3 of the major tech firms are, and I can't imagine a world in which a concerning patent license is going to get passed the corporate lawyers at Google/Amazon.
  - spicyj 9y ago
    Microsoft certainly does. https://github.com/Microsoft/react-native-windows https://github.com/Microsoft/react-native-windows https://microsoft.github.io/code-push/ https://microsoft.github.io/code-push/ https://mspoweruser.com/skype-is-testing-a-new-android-app-with-a-new-design-reaction-feature-and-bing-integration/ https://mspoweruser.com/skype-is-testing-a-new-android-app-w...
    - eganist 9y ago
      Microsoft also currently owns a stake in Facebook, it's worth noting. That stake used to be 1.6% of the company, though I don't know how much they currently hold.
      - spicyj 9y ago
        TIL.
losteric 9y ago
React is useful, it makes a lot of things easier to learn, and it has a beautiful architecture (imo). But, React is still just another tool in our toolboxes. If we're building prototypes or short-term apps, slap it together with whatever tool is fastest for you. If we're engineering something that needs to last and provide a great experience, it's important to know when to use a Philips head screwdriver versus a flathead, or either, or when we really just need a hammer.
- davidjnelson 9y ago
  Definitely. Quick, dirty, fast proof of concept? Jquery is fine. Multiple engineers, long lived, product/market fit proven? React makes more sense.
  - losteric 9y ago
    Heh, I prove my point. After paper prototypes, I prefer using React for proof of concepts and something lower-level for prod. However, my websites tend to be backend heavy and front-end light... no more interactive than Reddit.

eganist 9y ago

> If you don't like it because it requires you to learn a workflow you are unfamiliar with, don't use it. Unrelated to the technical side (which I haven't investigated in much depth yet as a third party to this discussion), I don't like it because of the patent license, which AFAICR is a valid concern for a non-trivial number of large firms. https://github.com/facebook/react/blob/master/PATENTS https://github.com/facebook/react/blob/master/PATENTS

peller 9y ago
If this is a concern, maybe you could just use something like preact as a drop-in replacement for react? https://github.com/developit/preact https://github.com/developit/preact
- bryanlarsen 9y ago
  How would that help? If Facebook has any patents on React, it's quite likely that preact is violating them. If you're using React then you're protected by the patent grant. If you're using preact then you aren't.
  - peller 9y ago
    Well, please correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it by using React you're essentially giving up your right to sue FB for infringement of any of your patents (assuming you wish to keep using React). True, by using something like preact I suppose there is the alternative risk you pointed out. But perhaps it's a tradeoff some businesses might find acceptable.
    - TheCoelacanth 9y ago
      You don't give up the right to sue them; you just lose the patent license if you do. If you use preact, you don't have the patent license at all, so you are in the same situation as if you used React and sued them over patents.
      - peller 9y ago
        Ah OK, thanks for the clarification. I stand corrected.
acemarke 9y ago
You might want to look at the official Facebook FAQ regarding that PATENTS clause ( https://code.facebook.com/pages/850928938376556 https://code.facebook.com/pages/850928938376556 ), as well as this legal analysis: http://lu.is/blog/2016/10/31/reacts-license-necessary-and-open/ http://lu.is/blog/2016/10/31/reacts-license-necessary-and-op... . I also have links to further discussion on the PATENTS clause in my React links list: https://github.com/markerikson/react-redux-links/blob/master/pros-cons-discussion.md#reacts-patents-license https://github.com/markerikson/react-redux-links/blob/master... .
- eganist 9y ago
  Tons of large firms patent everything under the sun, Facebook included. There's no telling when those will come in conflict, and I don't want to be on the wrong side of that battle just to use a framework with alternatives available. I can look at external analyses, but the firms I've spoken with have had their own IP folks examine it and have each made their own decisions, so I'm merely parroting the accounts of those I've spoken to. Edit: my initial comment (thread root) sits in the negatives but this one is high in the positives. It's interesting observing what I can only conclude is a proxy battle between the technical crowd and the crowd that understands legal realities.
- yladiz 9y ago
  The problem with the patents clause is that it's too broad wrt patents. If you have a valid patent that Facebook is infringing upon, no matter if it relates to React, Facebook revokes your right to use React. That's their prerogative, but it is generally too broad to allow some companies to actually use the library.
  - davidjnelson 9y ago
    That would be awful. Has this ever been used by Facebook, where a company had to strip react out?
    - spicyj 9y ago
      No.
jhall1468 9y ago
There are teams at Amazon and Google that use React. Honestly, the original patent license had some issues, but the new license seems to have alleviated concern for 2 of the remaining big 4. I don't know if MS uses it, but honestly 2/3 of the major tech firms are, and I can't imagine a world in which a concerning patent license is going to get passed the corporate lawyers at Google/Amazon.
- spicyj 9y ago
  Microsoft certainly does. https://github.com/Microsoft/react-native-windows https://github.com/Microsoft/react-native-windows https://microsoft.github.io/code-push/ https://microsoft.github.io/code-push/ https://mspoweruser.com/skype-is-testing-a-new-android-app-with-a-new-design-reaction-feature-and-bing-integration/ https://mspoweruser.com/skype-is-testing-a-new-android-app-w...
  - eganist 9y ago
    Microsoft also currently owns a stake in Facebook, it's worth noting. That stake used to be 1.6% of the company, though I don't know how much they currently hold.
    - spicyj 9y ago
      TIL.

losteric 9y ago

React is useful, it makes a lot of things easier to learn, and it has a beautiful architecture (imo). But, React is still just another tool in our toolboxes. If we're building prototypes or short-term apps, slap it together with whatever tool is fastest for you. If we're engineering something that needs to last and provide a great experience, it's important to know when to use a Philips head screwdriver versus a flathead, or either, or when we really just need a hammer.

davidjnelson 9y ago
Definitely. Quick, dirty, fast proof of concept? Jquery is fine. Multiple engineers, long lived, product/market fit proven? React makes more sense.
- losteric 9y ago
  Heh, I prove my point. After paper prototypes, I prefer using React for proof of concepts and something lower-level for prod. However, my websites tend to be backend heavy and front-end light... no more interactive than Reddit.