6 ms·

It's a good time to step back and define (or re-evaluate the definition of) "DevOps." It's an interesting word for an interesting movement, but (I think sadly)

by jMyles 10y ago

It's a good time to step back and define (or re-evaluate the definition of) "DevOps." It's an interesting word for an interesting movement, but (I think sadly) it has come to mean just "Ops." "DevOps" is a teamwork style and process pattern, wherein the same people engineering the logic of a system also support each other in taking ownership over the execution of the logic and maintenance of the system. DevOps means that, instead of sending an impatient email to the "DB admin" to apply your migrations, that you invite her to become familiar with the reason the migration was needed in the first place. In turn, she extends her toolchain to empower you to apply the migration yourself. Soon, you are part of the same team and the line dividing you, stopping you from supporting each other, is gone. DevOps is good for people who like to always be learning; it can be difficult for people who like to ever more deeply specialize. One thing that seems clear to me: the rise of packaged and automated ops solutions is not a threat to DevOps; on the contrary, it makes it even easier for a "Dev" team to collaborate on and take ownership of the "Ops" of an organization.

brown9-2 10y ago
This is exactly why job listings for "devops engineers" as a separate role from "software engineer" is such a confusing thing.
- geofft 10y ago
  Yeah, I've seen a lot of companies have postings for the two roles. Usually that means "we don't do devops at all, but we expect our ops staff to know how to code." It's a fine job to take if you know that's what you're in for, and you're not planning on advocating for actual devops.
- jjirsa 10y ago
  Typically that implies there's a team JUST writing inter-department tooling platforms: someone who's dedicated to making sure "devops" doesn't block everyone.
- swsieber 10y ago
  I would agree to some degree... but I would think that the "devops" engineer is simply the one to spearhead unifying dev and ops - the devops architect per say.
mholmes680 10y ago
>>DevOps is good for people who like to always be learning; it can be difficult for people who like to ever more deeply specialize. I agree with this, but I wonder if its because people right now are just still trying to figure out the tech. We're in the beginning of the adoption curve, so to speak and specialties will come eventually. As an additional point, I see DevOps expanding to DevSecOps, DevTestOps, and when the marketing folks catch up I'm sure we'll soon see DevSecTestOps. These are all just fancy words for being a more complete Developer - and enabling Developers to deliver faster. Anecdotally... From where I'm sitting right now (devops IT, huge non-tech company), it hasn't actually solved the problem of dumping crap over the wall, because ultimately people balk when going to prod with changes. (Compliance/SOX, fear of change, gui based existing deployments, bad APIs, etc....)
- FLUX-YOU 10y ago
  >These are all just fancy words for being a more complete Developer - and enabling Developers to deliver faster. So would I get paid more for being good at all of these areas? Or is this a move to open up a bunch of positions for mediocre people? (no offense, I am mediocre at code) Because DevOps fans seem to be advocating for more responsibility for similar/less pay (and you're outright fucking yourselves if you take on-call often without compensation). If DevOps moves anything like software does, there will be industry leaders which cause a lot of followers (90%) to hamfist the 10%'s methods onto their weird deployment/lifecycle processes and it will be an ongoing mutant until some other new thing promises to bring the light.
  - mholmes680 10y ago
    With all due respect, you are responsible for how much you get paid. If it behooves you to stay current with trends, capitalize on them, identify bogus ones, then go for it. If you know of a better way, the ball is in your court. I think a side-effect of devops is that more developers have to be good at more things, and less excellent at one. But, if I'm a hiring manager, there's places for both of those profiles in my team.
    - 10y ago
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
JustSomeNobody 10y ago
Another difficulty in DevOps is that you're never really off. If deployments can only happen in the wee hours of the morning or you have to answer that call about an issue with the system and you're spread over several time zones, you are always "on".
- memracom 10y ago
  This is a warped idea of what is actually happening. It is not about making developers take on old-style system operations tasks. It is about eliminating those old-style tasks. Nowadays, this is really possible. We can build self-healing software and even something old like Nagios can alleviate most of the on-call type work of the past.
  - jankedeen 10y ago
    There is no 'self-healing' system. Nothing can detect a 'real' failure as opposed to a counterfeit failure without heuristics that depend on an interpretation that is inherently fallible. Ops was about discipline and method. Restrict the problem set to known values. The one thing that I see these days is that developers don't have a fucking clue about ops but they do see that the basic task responsibility is toilsome, counter-creative and that 90% of it can be automated by reliance on coded procedures in write once argot that hopefully is editable and doesn't give up the family jewels when posted in pub github.
Jaepa 10y ago
> "DevOps" is a teamwork style and process pattern... Everytime I see a posting hiring a DevOps developer, I grind my teeth a little. It's like a posting for an Agile Developer from a couple years ago. There isn't such a thing as an agile developer, just developers who use agile. I feel like its just turned into a way for a company to signal that they are modern and attrach developers. It reminds me of https://www.commitstrip.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Strip-Cacher-les-vieilles-technos-english650-final.jpg https://www.commitstrip.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Strip...

by jMyles 10y ago

brown9-2 10y ago

This is exactly why job listings for "devops engineers" as a separate role from "software engineer" is such a confusing thing.

geofft 10y ago
Yeah, I've seen a lot of companies have postings for the two roles. Usually that means "we don't do devops at all, but we expect our ops staff to know how to code." It's a fine job to take if you know that's what you're in for, and you're not planning on advocating for actual devops.
jjirsa 10y ago
Typically that implies there's a team JUST writing inter-department tooling platforms: someone who's dedicated to making sure "devops" doesn't block everyone.
swsieber 10y ago
I would agree to some degree... but I would think that the "devops" engineer is simply the one to spearhead unifying dev and ops - the devops architect per say.

mholmes680 10y ago

>>DevOps is good for people who like to always be learning; it can be difficult for people who like to ever more deeply specialize. I agree with this, but I wonder if its because people right now are just still trying to figure out the tech. We're in the beginning of the adoption curve, so to speak and specialties will come eventually. As an additional point, I see DevOps expanding to DevSecOps, DevTestOps, and when the marketing folks catch up I'm sure we'll soon see DevSecTestOps. These are all just fancy words for being a more complete Developer - and enabling Developers to deliver faster. Anecdotally... From where I'm sitting right now (devops IT, huge non-tech company), it hasn't actually solved the problem of dumping crap over the wall, because ultimately people balk when going to prod with changes. (Compliance/SOX, fear of change, gui based existing deployments, bad APIs, etc....)

FLUX-YOU 10y ago
>These are all just fancy words for being a more complete Developer - and enabling Developers to deliver faster. So would I get paid more for being good at all of these areas? Or is this a move to open up a bunch of positions for mediocre people? (no offense, I am mediocre at code) Because DevOps fans seem to be advocating for more responsibility for similar/less pay (and you're outright fucking yourselves if you take on-call often without compensation). If DevOps moves anything like software does, there will be industry leaders which cause a lot of followers (90%) to hamfist the 10%'s methods onto their weird deployment/lifecycle processes and it will be an ongoing mutant until some other new thing promises to bring the light.
- mholmes680 10y ago
  With all due respect, you are responsible for how much you get paid. If it behooves you to stay current with trends, capitalize on them, identify bogus ones, then go for it. If you know of a better way, the ball is in your court. I think a side-effect of devops is that more developers have to be good at more things, and less excellent at one. But, if I'm a hiring manager, there's places for both of those profiles in my team.
  - 10y ago

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

JustSomeNobody 10y ago

Another difficulty in DevOps is that you're never really off. If deployments can only happen in the wee hours of the morning or you have to answer that call about an issue with the system and you're spread over several time zones, you are always "on".

memracom 10y ago
This is a warped idea of what is actually happening. It is not about making developers take on old-style system operations tasks. It is about eliminating those old-style tasks. Nowadays, this is really possible. We can build self-healing software and even something old like Nagios can alleviate most of the on-call type work of the past.
- jankedeen 10y ago
  There is no 'self-healing' system. Nothing can detect a 'real' failure as opposed to a counterfeit failure without heuristics that depend on an interpretation that is inherently fallible. Ops was about discipline and method. Restrict the problem set to known values. The one thing that I see these days is that developers don't have a fucking clue about ops but they do see that the basic task responsibility is toilsome, counter-creative and that 90% of it can be automated by reliance on coded procedures in write once argot that hopefully is editable and doesn't give up the family jewels when posted in pub github.

Jaepa 10y ago

> "DevOps" is a teamwork style and process pattern... Everytime I see a posting hiring a DevOps developer, I grind my teeth a little. It's like a posting for an Agile Developer from a couple years ago. There isn't such a thing as an agile developer, just developers who use agile. I feel like its just turned into a way for a company to signal that they are modern and attrach developers. It reminds me of https://www.commitstrip.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Strip-Cacher-les-vieilles-technos-english650-final.jpg https://www.commitstrip.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Strip...