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I didn't say it had to do with Room 641A. That was a separate and distinct reply to your allegations over no proof of wiretapping. Look at the very first sente

by kakarot 10y ago

I didn't say it had to do with Room 641A. That was a separate and distinct reply to your allegations over no proof of wiretapping. Look at the very first sentence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program) > PRISM is a secret code name for a program under which the United States National Security Agency (NSA) collects internet communications from at least nine major US internet companies And here: > Documents indicate that PRISM is "the number one source of raw intelligence used for NSA analytic reports", and it accounts for 91% of the NSA's internet traffic acquired under FISA section 702 authority." The leaked information came to light one day after the revelation that the FISA Court had been ordering a subsidiary of telecommunications company Verizon Communications to turn over to the NSA logs tracking all of its customers' telephone calls You're talking out of your ass. Clearly. You can't even do basic research on the most public open knowledge base on the internet. Just saying there is no evidence of mass wiretapping of AT&T's infra makes you look ignorant as hell. Next you're going to tell me this is just a fraternity club: https://vimeo.com/193562415 https://vimeo.com/193562415 https://theintercept.com/2016/11/16/the-nsas-spy-hub-in-new-york-hidden-in-plain-sight/ https://theintercept.com/2016/11/16/the-nsas-spy-hub-in-new-...

lern_too_spel 10y ago
Look at Snowden's actual documents. It shows the data is actually collected by the FBI's Data Intercept Technology Unit (https://i.imgur.com/setOJIm.jpg https://i.imgur.com/setOJIm.jpg), which is the organization within the FBI that handles electronic wiretaps . The FBI requests data for specific accounts from these companies using FISA warrants and NSLs, but only the data requested via FISA (i.e., for foreigners) are allowed into the NSA's systems. Room 641A isn't a mass wiretapping system. Once again, see the documents from Snowden. It looks for communications from specific Internet endpoints that are being wiretapped under court order.
- kakarot 10y ago
  I never denied the FBI's role in this? I never said Room 641A was a mass wiretapping system? Just that it was one example of many such wiretapping initiatives? I also provided citations showing that this is more than just targeting specific accounts? You're starting to sound like a shill, that won't do any good if you're trying to convince people of your narrative.
  - lern_too_spel 10y ago
    The point is that neither is an example of mass wiretapping, as Snowden's documents showed. What exactly do you think is targeting more than just specific accounts? Be specific. If we take the upper bounds from the transparency reports from the Internet companies, we can estimate that the volume of data from PRISM is so small that you could fit it on a single rack, and the Utah datacenter has nothing to do with it. You'll find that I'm a shill on the JFK assassination, chemtrails, mind control rays, and every other conspiracy theory that lacks evidence and has substantial evidence to the contrary.
    - kakarot 10y ago
      >> Documents indicate that PRISM is "the number one source of raw intelligence used for NSA analytic reports" PRISM isn't just some negligible thing to be brushed off. And of course it isn't the only thing they're doing over in Utah. It's one of many sources that all come together at places like this for data analysis. But it's the "big deal" everyone is talking about so it is very relevant to the discussion. Remember, if there is one there is more. We don't need a comprehensive list of every data center and chokepoint that is under surveillance to understand how prevalent it is based on known data. Example of mass surveillance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON#Confirmation_of_ECHELON_.282015.29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON#Confirmation_of_ECHELO... Example of mass surveillance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DISHFIRE#Scope_of_surveillance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DISHFIRE#Scope_of_surveillance Example of mass surveillance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MYSTIC_(surveillance_program)#Scope https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MYSTIC_(surveillance_program)#... Do I need to give you more or can you take it from here? Do you need more proof than the wiretapping of half a dozen countries' ENTIRE phone calls? Please do not chalk this up to "conspiracy theory". That is damaging and misleading. You are attempting to group this together with more fringe theories in order to discredit it. Logical fallacy. If you want to continue this discussion I ask that you play fairly and not revert to rhetoric and distraction.
      - lern_too_spel 10y ago
        > Documents indicate that PRISM is "the number one source of raw intelligence used for NSA analytic reports" That's because it contains wiretapping data of specific highly valuable targets. Nowhere in this sentence does it say that it contains mass surveillance because Snowden's documents and the government have shown it does not. I never said that the NSA doesn't engage in mass surveillance, only that it doesn't do mass wiretapping through Verizon and AT&T or through the Internet companies, as you wrongly believed PRISM did. The reason that distinction matters is that the NSA absolutely should gobble up all communications in a war zone or other foreign area threatening national security. That's what it's there for. Gobbling up and processing domestic communications as your claimed mass wiretapping on Verizon or Google would do is outside the scope of the intelligence agencies, and there remains no evidence that they do that despite multiple leaks. Any claim otherwise is conspiracy theory by definition.
- willstrafach 10y ago
  People did not read the source material of the Snowden leaks, only the editorialized articles which made unsubstantiated interpretations of what the leaked slides mean. That is probably why you are being downvoted, regardless of the fact that you are entirely correct.

by kakarot 10y ago

lern_too_spel 10y ago

Look at Snowden's actual documents. It shows the data is actually collected by the FBI's Data Intercept Technology Unit (https://i.imgur.com/setOJIm.jpg https://i.imgur.com/setOJIm.jpg), which is the organization within the FBI that handles electronic wiretaps . The FBI requests data for specific accounts from these companies using FISA warrants and NSLs, but only the data requested via FISA (i.e., for foreigners) are allowed into the NSA's systems. Room 641A isn't a mass wiretapping system. Once again, see the documents from Snowden. It looks for communications from specific Internet endpoints that are being wiretapped under court order.

kakarot 10y ago
I never denied the FBI's role in this? I never said Room 641A was a mass wiretapping system? Just that it was one example of many such wiretapping initiatives? I also provided citations showing that this is more than just targeting specific accounts? You're starting to sound like a shill, that won't do any good if you're trying to convince people of your narrative.
- lern_too_spel 10y ago
  The point is that neither is an example of mass wiretapping, as Snowden's documents showed. What exactly do you think is targeting more than just specific accounts? Be specific. If we take the upper bounds from the transparency reports from the Internet companies, we can estimate that the volume of data from PRISM is so small that you could fit it on a single rack, and the Utah datacenter has nothing to do with it. You'll find that I'm a shill on the JFK assassination, chemtrails, mind control rays, and every other conspiracy theory that lacks evidence and has substantial evidence to the contrary.
  - kakarot 10y ago
    >> Documents indicate that PRISM is "the number one source of raw intelligence used for NSA analytic reports" PRISM isn't just some negligible thing to be brushed off. And of course it isn't the only thing they're doing over in Utah. It's one of many sources that all come together at places like this for data analysis. But it's the "big deal" everyone is talking about so it is very relevant to the discussion. Remember, if there is one there is more. We don't need a comprehensive list of every data center and chokepoint that is under surveillance to understand how prevalent it is based on known data. Example of mass surveillance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON#Confirmation_of_ECHELON_.282015.29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON#Confirmation_of_ECHELO... Example of mass surveillance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DISHFIRE#Scope_of_surveillance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DISHFIRE#Scope_of_surveillance Example of mass surveillance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MYSTIC_(surveillance_program)#Scope https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MYSTIC_(surveillance_program)#... Do I need to give you more or can you take it from here? Do you need more proof than the wiretapping of half a dozen countries' ENTIRE phone calls? Please do not chalk this up to "conspiracy theory". That is damaging and misleading. You are attempting to group this together with more fringe theories in order to discredit it. Logical fallacy. If you want to continue this discussion I ask that you play fairly and not revert to rhetoric and distraction.
    - lern_too_spel 10y ago
      > Documents indicate that PRISM is "the number one source of raw intelligence used for NSA analytic reports" That's because it contains wiretapping data of specific highly valuable targets. Nowhere in this sentence does it say that it contains mass surveillance because Snowden's documents and the government have shown it does not. I never said that the NSA doesn't engage in mass surveillance, only that it doesn't do mass wiretapping through Verizon and AT&T or through the Internet companies, as you wrongly believed PRISM did. The reason that distinction matters is that the NSA absolutely should gobble up all communications in a war zone or other foreign area threatening national security. That's what it's there for. Gobbling up and processing domestic communications as your claimed mass wiretapping on Verizon or Google would do is outside the scope of the intelligence agencies, and there remains no evidence that they do that despite multiple leaks. Any claim otherwise is conspiracy theory by definition.
willstrafach 10y ago
People did not read the source material of the Snowden leaks, only the editorialized articles which made unsubstantiated interpretations of what the leaked slides mean. That is probably why you are being downvoted, regardless of the fact that you are entirely correct.