4 ms·

This is a reminder that if you're not the client, you're the product.

vkou 9y ago
This is so trite, it is borderline meaningless. Much of the time, you are both the client and the product. See, for example: Cable television.
- CamperBob2 9y ago
  If you're not paying money, you're not a customer. Saying that a true statement is "trite" and "meaningless" doesn't make it untrue.
  - vkou 9y ago
    I assure you, millions of people pay good money for the privilege of having their eyeballs and viewing preferences sold to advertisers. As said above - we call it cable television. Just because you are a customer does not mean you won't be monetized.
    - cucumbur 9y ago
      His comment wasn't denying that - it's wasn't saying that you're the product <=> you're not paying for a service. It was a single way implication: you're not paying for the service => you're the product. There can be other cases that lead to you being the product - that is, being monetized.
- jszymborski 9y ago
  I'd disagree. While it's true you can be paying someone to sell you to some third-party, it's virtually never the case where a private firm offers you a service completely gratis without sell you to some third-party. Furthermore, without the exchange of funds, you lose a lot of legal protections and the ability to hold the company accountable for a lot of their actions. I know it might be annoying to hear it over and over, but I think it bares repeating because I can guarantee you that only some people have heard that phrase, and far fewer have truly understood it's impact.
- nikcub 9y ago
  It is. There is nobody here who hasn't heard it a dozen times, and the general public audience it should be aimed at doesn't understand it. Further, it is cited as a rule but it is far from one. Paying for a product doesn't guarantee your privacy and using a free product doesn't mean your privacy is being violated. For ex. you can pay for Google Apps over Gmail but the privacy policy and terms of use is still the same (I actually can't think of a single service with a pro paid level where you gain privacy - Flickr, Dropbox, Freshbooks, Mailchimp, LinkedIn, Salesforce, Office online - you name it). Likewise there are countless examples of free and open source software that do respect your privacy. I don't think there is a shortcut to teaching the general public about privacy - especially not one that can be wrapped in a one line cliche.
  - pooper 9y ago
    > Paying for a product doesn't guarantee your privacy and using a free product doesn't mean your privacy is being violated. While what you say is logical, it gets scary pretty quickly. What about uber? What about airbnb? Or worse, what about paypal, intuit, wells fargo? I propose a simple thought experiment as a band-aid. If we can't beat them, we must join them. Every company that collects information about me, must disclose the said information to me. Failure to disclose in a reasonable time frame should result in an automatic fine worth 100x minimum wage per hour every hour after the end of the reasonable time frame. Of course, we'd need very strong whistle blower protection. This would be a terrible idea because if it works (and I doubt it), it will have a huge chilling effect on small businesses. Responding to all the requests would put them out of business. I don't know what the solution could be... but I know educating people is difficult especially when the people don't want to be educated.
    - matt4077 9y ago
      It's getting a bit repetitive in this thread, but I can't help but to mention that what you're proposing is the legal status quo in the EU. At some point so many people started annoying Facebook with these requests that they added a self-service option to download all the data they have on you somewhere in setting. (Google has something similar, "Google takeout")

vkou 9y ago

This is so trite, it is borderline meaningless. Much of the time, you are both the client and the product. See, for example: Cable television.

CamperBob2 9y ago
If you're not paying money, you're not a customer. Saying that a true statement is "trite" and "meaningless" doesn't make it untrue.
- vkou 9y ago
  I assure you, millions of people pay good money for the privilege of having their eyeballs and viewing preferences sold to advertisers. As said above - we call it cable television. Just because you are a customer does not mean you won't be monetized.
  - cucumbur 9y ago
    His comment wasn't denying that - it's wasn't saying that you're the product <=> you're not paying for a service. It was a single way implication: you're not paying for the service => you're the product. There can be other cases that lead to you being the product - that is, being monetized.
jszymborski 9y ago
I'd disagree. While it's true you can be paying someone to sell you to some third-party, it's virtually never the case where a private firm offers you a service completely gratis without sell you to some third-party. Furthermore, without the exchange of funds, you lose a lot of legal protections and the ability to hold the company accountable for a lot of their actions. I know it might be annoying to hear it over and over, but I think it bares repeating because I can guarantee you that only some people have heard that phrase, and far fewer have truly understood it's impact.
nikcub 9y ago
It is. There is nobody here who hasn't heard it a dozen times, and the general public audience it should be aimed at doesn't understand it. Further, it is cited as a rule but it is far from one. Paying for a product doesn't guarantee your privacy and using a free product doesn't mean your privacy is being violated. For ex. you can pay for Google Apps over Gmail but the privacy policy and terms of use is still the same (I actually can't think of a single service with a pro paid level where you gain privacy - Flickr, Dropbox, Freshbooks, Mailchimp, LinkedIn, Salesforce, Office online - you name it). Likewise there are countless examples of free and open source software that do respect your privacy. I don't think there is a shortcut to teaching the general public about privacy - especially not one that can be wrapped in a one line cliche.
- pooper 9y ago
  > Paying for a product doesn't guarantee your privacy and using a free product doesn't mean your privacy is being violated. While what you say is logical, it gets scary pretty quickly. What about uber? What about airbnb? Or worse, what about paypal, intuit, wells fargo? I propose a simple thought experiment as a band-aid. If we can't beat them, we must join them. Every company that collects information about me, must disclose the said information to me. Failure to disclose in a reasonable time frame should result in an automatic fine worth 100x minimum wage per hour every hour after the end of the reasonable time frame. Of course, we'd need very strong whistle blower protection. This would be a terrible idea because if it works (and I doubt it), it will have a huge chilling effect on small businesses. Responding to all the requests would put them out of business. I don't know what the solution could be... but I know educating people is difficult especially when the people don't want to be educated.
  - matt4077 9y ago
    It's getting a bit repetitive in this thread, but I can't help but to mention that what you're proposing is the legal status quo in the EU. At some point so many people started annoying Facebook with these requests that they added a self-service option to download all the data they have on you somewhere in setting. (Google has something similar, "Google takeout")