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> it's hard to seriously argue that the NSA should stop exploiting computers. It's their role. We need them, just like we need a military. Would you say the sa

> it's hard to seriously argue that the NSA should stop exploiting computers. It's their role. We need them, just like we need a military. Would you say the same of Chinese government hackers and Syran military? If yes, OK. I understand you accept the need for competition in arms. If not, can you explain why?

notgood 10y ago
Exactly, if the US army starts raping ISIS females later it can't pretend its barbaric for other armies to do the same, incl. american females in the army. Doing the least morally right thing always brings more problems than its worth, and that's exactly what NSA does every time it pokes holes into everyone's software.
Ajedi32 10y ago
> Would you say the same of Chinese government hackers and Syran military? No, for the same reason why I'm okay with the US military having nukes but wouldn't be okay with Syria having them. Obviously it'd be great if we could get by with no military powers having to possess zero-day exploits (or nukes), but so long as we can't be sure no other nations are benefiting from such exploits, it makes no sense strategically to forbid our own governments from doing the same.
- averagewall 10y ago
  So it equally makes no sense for China to forbid itself from using their own exploits? As long as they can't be sure America isn't benefiting from them, they'd better keep up with the arms race. Or do you consider America to be special and that it deserves these powers more than other countries? Personally I don't think it's competent to hold them because it has an ongoing history of using its weapons to destroy other countries, property and lives. If I had to choose who wins the arms race, I would prefer a less hostile country like China or Germany to have them instead of America. But really, why not nobody? Exploits are offensive weapons, not defensive ones.
  - Ajedi32 10y ago
    > So it equally makes no sense for China to forbid itself from using their own exploits? As long as they can't be sure America isn't benefiting from them, they'd better keep up with the arms race. Correct. Same goes for any nation. Since there's no way to be sure that other nations aren't developing zero-day exploits, not developing exploits of your own does nothing more than put you at a disadvantage. > Or do you consider America to be special and that it deserves these powers more than other countries? Yes. I know this seems to be a rather unpopular opinion with the HN crowd these days, but the US absolutely deserves to have better military capabilities than nations like Syria or China. (As for Germany, I'd also be mostly okay with them possessing exploits; as they're a democratic nation who I generally trust to act in the best interests of their citizens. I cannot say the same for Syria or China.) > But really, why not nobody? Exploits are offensive weapons, not defensive ones. That'd be great, but unfortunately it's not a realistic option. So long as one nation possesses and benefits from zero-day exploits (even secretly) then it makes no strategic sense for any other nation to intentionally put themselves at a disadvantage by not developing exploits of their own.
burfog 10y ago
Yes and no. I'm not OK with the Chinese having slingshots and spears, never mind ICBMs and nuclear warheads. That doesn't stop them, and I'm not offended or shocked that they would be armed. Regarding cyberwar, I prefer that the Chinese not know how to program computers or even find the "on" switch. I'm not offended or shocked that they manage this and much more. The same goes for Syria.

notgood 10y ago

Exactly, if the US army starts raping ISIS females later it can't pretend its barbaric for other armies to do the same, incl. american females in the army. Doing the least morally right thing always brings more problems than its worth, and that's exactly what NSA does every time it pokes holes into everyone's software.

Ajedi32 10y ago

> Would you say the same of Chinese government hackers and Syran military? No, for the same reason why I'm okay with the US military having nukes but wouldn't be okay with Syria having them. Obviously it'd be great if we could get by with no military powers having to possess zero-day exploits (or nukes), but so long as we can't be sure no other nations are benefiting from such exploits, it makes no sense strategically to forbid our own governments from doing the same.

averagewall 10y ago
So it equally makes no sense for China to forbid itself from using their own exploits? As long as they can't be sure America isn't benefiting from them, they'd better keep up with the arms race. Or do you consider America to be special and that it deserves these powers more than other countries? Personally I don't think it's competent to hold them because it has an ongoing history of using its weapons to destroy other countries, property and lives. If I had to choose who wins the arms race, I would prefer a less hostile country like China or Germany to have them instead of America. But really, why not nobody? Exploits are offensive weapons, not defensive ones.
- Ajedi32 10y ago
  > So it equally makes no sense for China to forbid itself from using their own exploits? As long as they can't be sure America isn't benefiting from them, they'd better keep up with the arms race. Correct. Same goes for any nation. Since there's no way to be sure that other nations aren't developing zero-day exploits, not developing exploits of your own does nothing more than put you at a disadvantage. > Or do you consider America to be special and that it deserves these powers more than other countries? Yes. I know this seems to be a rather unpopular opinion with the HN crowd these days, but the US absolutely deserves to have better military capabilities than nations like Syria or China. (As for Germany, I'd also be mostly okay with them possessing exploits; as they're a democratic nation who I generally trust to act in the best interests of their citizens. I cannot say the same for Syria or China.) > But really, why not nobody? Exploits are offensive weapons, not defensive ones. That'd be great, but unfortunately it's not a realistic option. So long as one nation possesses and benefits from zero-day exploits (even secretly) then it makes no strategic sense for any other nation to intentionally put themselves at a disadvantage by not developing exploits of their own.

burfog 10y ago

Yes and no. I'm not OK with the Chinese having slingshots and spears, never mind ICBMs and nuclear warheads. That doesn't stop them, and I'm not offended or shocked that they would be armed. Regarding cyberwar, I prefer that the Chinese not know how to program computers or even find the "on" switch. I'm not offended or shocked that they manage this and much more. The same goes for Syria.