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It was before Snowden. We have had hard facts since the 90's that mass wiretapping and exploitation has been going on thru vehicles like AT&T and Verizon. And

by kakarot 10y ago

It was before Snowden. We have had hard facts since the 90's that mass wiretapping and exploitation has been going on thru vehicles like AT&T and Verizon. And we knew about PRISM for a good two years before its public disclosure. Sudden black square over a remote area in Utah in satellite imagery. Pictures of a massive contruct. Coupled with the fact that we knew they needed a place to centralize all of this collected information, it was plainly public how the NSA was operating. No one just wanted to frigging listen until they had a celebrity icon like Snowden to interest them, because we operate on a system of identity politics.

daveguy 10y ago
> It was before Snowden. I wasn't saying that's when it started. I was saying that's when people stopped viewing "government is listening to everyone" as conspiracy. > No one just wanted to frigging listen until they had a celebrity icon like Snowden to interest them... It didn't have anything to do with Snowden's "celebrity". Do you think he was a celebrity before he produced physical evidence? Turns out, no one wanted to friggin listen, until someone had proof.
- arca_vorago 10y ago
  "when people stopped viewing "government is listening to everyone" as conspiracy." The entire point is that the public isn't listening to the dangers presented beforehand. Yes, now people dont think you're crazy for thinking we are surveilled heavily, but now the equivalent is when I tell people why they put the surveillance in place at all. Typical responses include "but they're just doing it for national security". If 1/3 of the public only knew half the shit the gov was up to there would be a revolt tomorrow morning. It's deeper and darker than just massive surveillance. My only question for years has been if the public will wake up enough to realize it. With the failing education and financial systems and the propaganda levels turned up to 11, I'm beginning to doubt it.
- kakarot 10y ago
  You're missing the point. Someone already had proof. Snowden was the one who managed to bring it to a mass audience. And I love him and respect him immensely for that. But I'm sure he also feels the same disdain that it took him completely destroying his life to convince people that something nefarious has been going on when many clues were already public and just routinely dismissed by people like the other guy arguing with me right now. Yeah, he gave lots of evidence on programs we didn't even know existed. Like, the full extent of this situation. But we already had enough information to know that we should demand legislation and oversight and that 1984 has all but come true.
knowaveragejoe 10y ago
I don't think anyone worth a damn as far as this subject is concerned would have labeled you a conspiracy theorist. Anyone with an even passing knowledge of security assumed something of this nature was going on. It just logically follows, given the explosion of computers in every aspect of life, that the NSA would be doing this. Side note, what black image in a remote area of Utah? If you're talking about the Bluffdale data center, it's been visible on Google maps this entire time IIRC. You can even see historical images of it being built in Google Earth: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.43085,-111.9278303,2900m/data=!3m1!1e3 https://www.google.com/maps/@40.43085,-111.9278303,2900m/dat...
- kakarot 10y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center I distinctly remember a point when it was not visible. That is how I discovered the plans to build a complex there years ago. This was probably remedied not long after we started catching wind. I'm sure it would not be difficult for Google, et al. to retroactively "fix" their public imagery data.
  - knowaveragejoe 10y ago
    I wouldn't rule it out, but I'm left scratching my head as to the motivation why. I remember reading about said data center years ago, before they even broke ground. The location was known at that time, too. If the physical location was of such importance to censor it from satellite images, why then retroactively add those images back in?
    - kakarot 10y ago
      Heh, I'm wondering if my memory has muddied a bit and I actually just saw the foundation being laid down, though I'm pretty sure it was black for a while. Either way seeing that sparked my interest and led to me finding out about plans to build a data center, which were largely conjecture and rumor at the time. At that point we really were all a bunch of conspiracy theorists without any hard evidence.
lern_too_spel 10y ago
There is no evidence of mass wiretapping from AT&T or Verizon even after Snowden. The rest of your post shows you still don't have any idea what PRISM is even after Snowden and the government disclosed it.
- kakarot 10y ago
  I'm well aware of PRISM :-) You misunderstand me. PRISM is the program, but it needed an HQ! Here is that HQ: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center Here is one such example of such a wiretapping program under AT&T: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A And there are many more. It just depends on what you call "evidence". Is it your own definition, or are you relying on others to tell you what is and isn't legitimate? It's quite ironic that you are telling me I don't know what PRISM is when I knew about it long before it reached public, and presumably your own, attention.
  - lern_too_spel 10y ago
    You very clearly don't know what PRISM is. According to Snowden's documents, PRISM is the program that brings the FBI's FISA electronic communication wiretaps into the NSA's databases. It has absolutely nothing to do with Room 641A, which also doesn't do what you think it does.
    - kakarot 10y ago
      I didn't say it had to do with Room 641A. That was a separate and distinct reply to your allegations over no proof of wiretapping. Look at the very first sentence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program) > PRISM is a secret code name for a program under which the United States National Security Agency (NSA) collects internet communications from at least nine major US internet companies And here: > Documents indicate that PRISM is "the number one source of raw intelligence used for NSA analytic reports", and it accounts for 91% of the NSA's internet traffic acquired under FISA section 702 authority." The leaked information came to light one day after the revelation that the FISA Court had been ordering a subsidiary of telecommunications company Verizon Communications to turn over to the NSA logs tracking all of its customers' telephone calls You're talking out of your ass. Clearly. You can't even do basic research on the most public open knowledge base on the internet. Just saying there is no evidence of mass wiretapping of AT&T's infra makes you look ignorant as hell. Next you're going to tell me this is just a fraternity club: https://vimeo.com/193562415 https://vimeo.com/193562415 https://theintercept.com/2016/11/16/the-nsas-spy-hub-in-new-york-hidden-in-plain-sight/ https://theintercept.com/2016/11/16/the-nsas-spy-hub-in-new-...

by kakarot 10y ago

daveguy 10y ago

> It was before Snowden. I wasn't saying that's when it started. I was saying that's when people stopped viewing "government is listening to everyone" as conspiracy. > No one just wanted to frigging listen until they had a celebrity icon like Snowden to interest them... It didn't have anything to do with Snowden's "celebrity". Do you think he was a celebrity before he produced physical evidence? Turns out, no one wanted to friggin listen, until someone had proof.

arca_vorago 10y ago
"when people stopped viewing "government is listening to everyone" as conspiracy." The entire point is that the public isn't listening to the dangers presented beforehand. Yes, now people dont think you're crazy for thinking we are surveilled heavily, but now the equivalent is when I tell people why they put the surveillance in place at all. Typical responses include "but they're just doing it for national security". If 1/3 of the public only knew half the shit the gov was up to there would be a revolt tomorrow morning. It's deeper and darker than just massive surveillance. My only question for years has been if the public will wake up enough to realize it. With the failing education and financial systems and the propaganda levels turned up to 11, I'm beginning to doubt it.
kakarot 10y ago
You're missing the point. Someone already had proof. Snowden was the one who managed to bring it to a mass audience. And I love him and respect him immensely for that. But I'm sure he also feels the same disdain that it took him completely destroying his life to convince people that something nefarious has been going on when many clues were already public and just routinely dismissed by people like the other guy arguing with me right now. Yeah, he gave lots of evidence on programs we didn't even know existed. Like, the full extent of this situation. But we already had enough information to know that we should demand legislation and oversight and that 1984 has all but come true.

knowaveragejoe 10y ago

I don't think anyone worth a damn as far as this subject is concerned would have labeled you a conspiracy theorist. Anyone with an even passing knowledge of security assumed something of this nature was going on. It just logically follows, given the explosion of computers in every aspect of life, that the NSA would be doing this. Side note, what black image in a remote area of Utah? If you're talking about the Bluffdale data center, it's been visible on Google maps this entire time IIRC. You can even see historical images of it being built in Google Earth: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.43085,-111.9278303,2900m/data=!3m1!1e3 https://www.google.com/maps/@40.43085,-111.9278303,2900m/dat...

kakarot 10y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center I distinctly remember a point when it was not visible. That is how I discovered the plans to build a complex there years ago. This was probably remedied not long after we started catching wind. I'm sure it would not be difficult for Google, et al. to retroactively "fix" their public imagery data.
- knowaveragejoe 10y ago
  I wouldn't rule it out, but I'm left scratching my head as to the motivation why. I remember reading about said data center years ago, before they even broke ground. The location was known at that time, too. If the physical location was of such importance to censor it from satellite images, why then retroactively add those images back in?
  - kakarot 10y ago
    Heh, I'm wondering if my memory has muddied a bit and I actually just saw the foundation being laid down, though I'm pretty sure it was black for a while. Either way seeing that sparked my interest and led to me finding out about plans to build a data center, which were largely conjecture and rumor at the time. At that point we really were all a bunch of conspiracy theorists without any hard evidence.

lern_too_spel 10y ago

There is no evidence of mass wiretapping from AT&T or Verizon even after Snowden. The rest of your post shows you still don't have any idea what PRISM is even after Snowden and the government disclosed it.

kakarot 10y ago
I'm well aware of PRISM :-) You misunderstand me. PRISM is the program, but it needed an HQ! Here is that HQ: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center Here is one such example of such a wiretapping program under AT&T: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A And there are many more. It just depends on what you call "evidence". Is it your own definition, or are you relying on others to tell you what is and isn't legitimate? It's quite ironic that you are telling me I don't know what PRISM is when I knew about it long before it reached public, and presumably your own, attention.
- lern_too_spel 10y ago
  You very clearly don't know what PRISM is. According to Snowden's documents, PRISM is the program that brings the FBI's FISA electronic communication wiretaps into the NSA's databases. It has absolutely nothing to do with Room 641A, which also doesn't do what you think it does.
  - kakarot 10y ago
    I didn't say it had to do with Room 641A. That was a separate and distinct reply to your allegations over no proof of wiretapping. Look at the very first sentence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program) > PRISM is a secret code name for a program under which the United States National Security Agency (NSA) collects internet communications from at least nine major US internet companies And here: > Documents indicate that PRISM is "the number one source of raw intelligence used for NSA analytic reports", and it accounts for 91% of the NSA's internet traffic acquired under FISA section 702 authority." The leaked information came to light one day after the revelation that the FISA Court had been ordering a subsidiary of telecommunications company Verizon Communications to turn over to the NSA logs tracking all of its customers' telephone calls You're talking out of your ass. Clearly. You can't even do basic research on the most public open knowledge base on the internet. Just saying there is no evidence of mass wiretapping of AT&T's infra makes you look ignorant as hell. Next you're going to tell me this is just a fraternity club: https://vimeo.com/193562415 https://vimeo.com/193562415 https://theintercept.com/2016/11/16/the-nsas-spy-hub-in-new-york-hidden-in-plain-sight/ https://theintercept.com/2016/11/16/the-nsas-spy-hub-in-new-...