4 ms·

> "Free market" implies "I can do what I want" I always though free implied free from non-consensual acts. It's not much of a free market if your actions are n

> "Free market" implies "I can do what I want" I always though free implied free from non-consensual acts. It's not much of a free market if your actions are non-consensual (1). (1) Defining what makes an action consensual is difficult but doable.

masklinn 9y ago
"Consent or die" is not a choice, but on free market it is.
darpa_escapee 9y ago
That's the American libertarian definition.
jaredklewis 9y ago
Difficult indeed. An ordinary American internet user consents to countless pages of legalese in adhesion and other unread contracts (TOSs, privacy policies and so on) everyday day. These days, every website, piece of software, digital service or product comes with pages upon pages of contracts to which the user must consent to even walk in the door. Reading all of them is easily a full time job. So, no one has coerced anyone into anything, just a bunch of consenting parties in theory. In practice, getting consumers to throw away their rights and consent to stridently anti-competitive behavior by companies seems kind of easy. Taken in the sense of an economy of mutual consent, "free market" is too low a bar to hop over. I can see why people don't think that the barebones style of "free market" is very free.
- ericHosick 9y ago
  This is a deep discussion to have: too deep for a medium like HN. That being said... Your points pre-suppose parties consented to a dispute resolution system: one that is based on arbitrary boundaries and quite monopolistic (1). > I can see why people don't think that the barebones style of "free market" is very free. So, I agree that it is hard for people to understand what consent is when they were never given a chance to choose which dispute resolution system(s) they can participate in. (1) Example being I was born in the USA so somehow automatically consented to the rules of the land.
  - eropple 9y ago
    You're given that chance every day you choose not to go elsewhere where the legal situation is more to your liking. The social contract has an opt-out. But that'd be hard, so...
    - derefr 9y ago
      There being no good place to move because every other government also allows these things, is a sort of monopoly problem of its own...
      - eropple 9y ago
        Have you considered that maybe there are reasons for that that don't involve the twirling of mustachios?
  - jaredklewis 9y ago
    What you say is true much of the time, but it is also true that consumers often do "choose" their arbiter. The aforementioned adhesion contracts often stipulate a private (non-government) arbiter, which the consumer (probably you, too) consents to of their own free will. I see your points. But I kind of feel like we were having a rather nuts and bolts discussion about how to improve security in Linux, and then someone chimes in that we should probably rewrite everything in Haskell. If achieving a free market requires a complete upheaval of all of our governments and laws, then the idea isn't very useful.
    - ericHosick 9y ago
      > If achieving a free market requires a complete upheaval of all of our governments and laws, then the idea isn't very useful. The idea is extremely useful: act consensual to others. There is no better basis of a social system than this. Having conversations like the one were having now is really all we need. To force the ideas on others in anyway, especially through democracy, would be hypocritical. A social system based on utility, which is basically all social systems we've had throughout history, is violent, aggressive and dangerous. No wonder history repeats itself.
scythe 9y ago
The ability of consensual exchange to increase utility for both parties frays at the limits of the ability of the parties giving consent to predict the results of their decision. Our ability to express the inherent failings of consensual contracts requires us to understand the limits of our own predictive power, which turns out to be a monstrously difficult scientific question. However, it seems to me that, if one party to a negotiation takes actions which are intended to limit the other's understanding of the exchange, the usefulness of consent as a mechanism to prevent bad trades is degraded. This is not quite violence, but it is scummy, and it doesn't seem that it would be "anti-capitalist" to restrict it.
- ericHosick 9y ago
  Fully agree. It wouldn't surprise me if acting 'scummy' was considered, by at least one party, to be non-consensual.

masklinn 9y ago

"Consent or die" is not a choice, but on free market it is.

darpa_escapee 9y ago

That's the American libertarian definition.

jaredklewis 9y ago

Difficult indeed. An ordinary American internet user consents to countless pages of legalese in adhesion and other unread contracts (TOSs, privacy policies and so on) everyday day. These days, every website, piece of software, digital service or product comes with pages upon pages of contracts to which the user must consent to even walk in the door. Reading all of them is easily a full time job. So, no one has coerced anyone into anything, just a bunch of consenting parties in theory. In practice, getting consumers to throw away their rights and consent to stridently anti-competitive behavior by companies seems kind of easy. Taken in the sense of an economy of mutual consent, "free market" is too low a bar to hop over. I can see why people don't think that the barebones style of "free market" is very free.

ericHosick 9y ago
This is a deep discussion to have: too deep for a medium like HN. That being said... Your points pre-suppose parties consented to a dispute resolution system: one that is based on arbitrary boundaries and quite monopolistic (1). > I can see why people don't think that the barebones style of "free market" is very free. So, I agree that it is hard for people to understand what consent is when they were never given a chance to choose which dispute resolution system(s) they can participate in. (1) Example being I was born in the USA so somehow automatically consented to the rules of the land.
- eropple 9y ago
  You're given that chance every day you choose not to go elsewhere where the legal situation is more to your liking. The social contract has an opt-out. But that'd be hard, so...
  - derefr 9y ago
    There being no good place to move because every other government also allows these things, is a sort of monopoly problem of its own...
    - eropple 9y ago
      Have you considered that maybe there are reasons for that that don't involve the twirling of mustachios?
- jaredklewis 9y ago
  What you say is true much of the time, but it is also true that consumers often do "choose" their arbiter. The aforementioned adhesion contracts often stipulate a private (non-government) arbiter, which the consumer (probably you, too) consents to of their own free will. I see your points. But I kind of feel like we were having a rather nuts and bolts discussion about how to improve security in Linux, and then someone chimes in that we should probably rewrite everything in Haskell. If achieving a free market requires a complete upheaval of all of our governments and laws, then the idea isn't very useful.
  - ericHosick 9y ago
    > If achieving a free market requires a complete upheaval of all of our governments and laws, then the idea isn't very useful. The idea is extremely useful: act consensual to others. There is no better basis of a social system than this. Having conversations like the one were having now is really all we need. To force the ideas on others in anyway, especially through democracy, would be hypocritical. A social system based on utility, which is basically all social systems we've had throughout history, is violent, aggressive and dangerous. No wonder history repeats itself.

scythe 9y ago

The ability of consensual exchange to increase utility for both parties frays at the limits of the ability of the parties giving consent to predict the results of their decision. Our ability to express the inherent failings of consensual contracts requires us to understand the limits of our own predictive power, which turns out to be a monstrously difficult scientific question. However, it seems to me that, if one party to a negotiation takes actions which are intended to limit the other's understanding of the exchange, the usefulness of consent as a mechanism to prevent bad trades is degraded. This is not quite violence, but it is scummy, and it doesn't seem that it would be "anti-capitalist" to restrict it.

ericHosick 9y ago
Fully agree. It wouldn't surprise me if acting 'scummy' was considered, by at least one party, to be non-consensual.