4 ms·

> I don't think you can support a ridesharing company that by design treats employees as contractors and also be socially conscious I don't understand why not.

by bmelton 10y ago

> I don't think you can support a ridesharing company that by design treats employees as contractors and also be socially conscious I don't understand why not. I have a total of five friends who have each chosen to drive for various ridesharing companies, and in the conversations I've had with them, it seems pretty clear that none of them would be drivers if they couldn't set their own schedules, or if they were otherwise treated as actual employees. To be fair, only one of them is driving as their main source of income; the other four are driving to supplement their day jobs for side money. The flexible schedule is crucial to that. The fifth prefers flexible scheduling as well. Though he might otherwise be considered a 'full time' employee, he working a schedule around a non-standard custodial agreement with his ex-wife, which means he might drive for 14-15 hours in one day, and none in another.

Retric 10y ago
Flexible schedules has almost nothing to do with employees vs contractors.
- sillysaurus3 10y ago
  It seems related.
- zimablue 10y ago
  In the UK at least, flexible time and place of work (as well as use of company equipment to do your work) are considerations when considering whether you can be classed as self employed. Re the base comment, it's almost not worth replying to as any: "you can't do X and consider yourself Y" comments are in themselves silly, because answering in the general case - I have a different definition of Y to you - you can think of our internal definitions as an ordering of <things related to Y> by <how efficient it is for me to do thing in advancing the cause of Y>. For example, I care a lot about humanity being happier and more equal but I think that in the long term this is something which will have to be provided by the state and not employers, so I'm ambivalent towards laws trying to push employers into a paternal role.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- Pulcinella 10y ago
  Uh yes it does. If you are sitting your own hours, they definitely points towards contractor. https://www.oregon.gov/ODA/shared/Documents/Publications/NaturalResources/20FactorTestforIndependentContractors.pdf https://www.oregon.gov/ODA/shared/Documents/Publications/Nat...
  - Retric 10y ago
    It's a 20 question scale so on it's own it means nothing. But yes when combined with a lot of other evidence it vaguely hints to contractor.
- adrianmonk 10y ago
  It is literally one of the criteria that the IRS uses to decide whether someone is an employee or an independent contractor. From https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/independent-contractor-self-employed-or-employee#SE https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employe... : "In determining whether the person providing service is an employee or an independent contractor, all information that provides evidence of the degree of control and independence must be considered." One of the categories of control and independence is behavioral, which is described here: https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/behavioral-control https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employe... It says: "An employee is generally subject to the business’s instructions about when, where, and how to work." Uber, Lyft, etc. leave the driver to decide which car they drive, where they buy gas, which jobs they take, and when they work or don't work. This is a big part of what goes into justifying their legal status as contractors rather than employees.
  - Retric 10y ago
    It's 1 of ~20 criteria (list has changed over time), importantly they are not all weighted the same and people will always pick a few things on a list like that to support their side, but no it's no where near the most important. EX: Using their app counts as their equipment even if you use your car. Much like using your shoes is required to work fast food not not sufficient equipment. However, it's a more balanced arrangement.
idop 10y ago
> he might drive for 14-15 hours in one day This, by the way, is probably illegal, as it is extremely dangerous. If I'm taking a taxi, I'd like to know my driver is not on the brink of exhaustion.
- tedmiston 10y ago
  It might be unsafe but it's not illegal. It looks like Uber recently sidestepped it with agreeing that drivers not work more than 12 "consecutive" hours. Does a 15-min food break make two 8 blocks "non-consecutive"? I hope not. http://www.politico.com/states/new-york/city-hall/story/2016/02/uber-agrees-to-limit-its-drivers-working-hours-031204 http://www.politico.com/states/new-york/city-hall/story/2016...
  - idop 10y ago
    In Israel, food breaks do not make two separate blocks. By law, you can't work more than 12 hours in one work-day, and there must be at least an 8 hour rest period between two work-days. I remember when I was in the army, you were not allowed to drive if you hadn't slept at least 8 hours the night before. Of course, these rules are never strictly kept.
  - amyjess 10y ago
    Some states do indeed have drowsy driving laws: http://www.ncsl.org/research/transportation/summaries-of-current-drowsy-driving-laws.aspx http://www.ncsl.org/research/transportation/summaries-of-cur...
    - tedmiston 10y ago
      Thanks for adding this — it looks like a couple states are settling on no sleep in 24 consecutive hours as a standard. I wonder if different regulations are being considered for individuals vs drivers for ride sharing services. The latter is more concerning to me, though both are definitely a big deal.

by bmelton 10y ago

Retric 10y ago

Flexible schedules has almost nothing to do with employees vs contractors.

sillysaurus3 10y ago
It seems related.
zimablue 10y ago
In the UK at least, flexible time and place of work (as well as use of company equipment to do your work) are considerations when considering whether you can be classed as self employed. Re the base comment, it's almost not worth replying to as any: "you can't do X and consider yourself Y" comments are in themselves silly, because answering in the general case - I have a different definition of Y to you - you can think of our internal definitions as an ordering of <things related to Y> by <how efficient it is for me to do thing in advancing the cause of Y>. For example, I care a lot about humanity being happier and more equal but I think that in the long term this is something which will have to be provided by the state and not employers, so I'm ambivalent towards laws trying to push employers into a paternal role.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
Pulcinella 10y ago
Uh yes it does. If you are sitting your own hours, they definitely points towards contractor. https://www.oregon.gov/ODA/shared/Documents/Publications/NaturalResources/20FactorTestforIndependentContractors.pdf https://www.oregon.gov/ODA/shared/Documents/Publications/Nat...
- Retric 10y ago
  It's a 20 question scale so on it's own it means nothing. But yes when combined with a lot of other evidence it vaguely hints to contractor.
adrianmonk 10y ago
It is literally one of the criteria that the IRS uses to decide whether someone is an employee or an independent contractor. From https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/independent-contractor-self-employed-or-employee#SE https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employe... : "In determining whether the person providing service is an employee or an independent contractor, all information that provides evidence of the degree of control and independence must be considered." One of the categories of control and independence is behavioral, which is described here: https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/behavioral-control https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employe... It says: "An employee is generally subject to the business’s instructions about when, where, and how to work." Uber, Lyft, etc. leave the driver to decide which car they drive, where they buy gas, which jobs they take, and when they work or don't work. This is a big part of what goes into justifying their legal status as contractors rather than employees.
- Retric 10y ago
  It's 1 of ~20 criteria (list has changed over time), importantly they are not all weighted the same and people will always pick a few things on a list like that to support their side, but no it's no where near the most important. EX: Using their app counts as their equipment even if you use your car. Much like using your shoes is required to work fast food not not sufficient equipment. However, it's a more balanced arrangement.

idop 10y ago

> he might drive for 14-15 hours in one day This, by the way, is probably illegal, as it is extremely dangerous. If I'm taking a taxi, I'd like to know my driver is not on the brink of exhaustion.

tedmiston 10y ago
It might be unsafe but it's not illegal. It looks like Uber recently sidestepped it with agreeing that drivers not work more than 12 "consecutive" hours. Does a 15-min food break make two 8 blocks "non-consecutive"? I hope not. http://www.politico.com/states/new-york/city-hall/story/2016/02/uber-agrees-to-limit-its-drivers-working-hours-031204 http://www.politico.com/states/new-york/city-hall/story/2016...
- idop 10y ago
  In Israel, food breaks do not make two separate blocks. By law, you can't work more than 12 hours in one work-day, and there must be at least an 8 hour rest period between two work-days. I remember when I was in the army, you were not allowed to drive if you hadn't slept at least 8 hours the night before. Of course, these rules are never strictly kept.
- amyjess 10y ago
  Some states do indeed have drowsy driving laws: http://www.ncsl.org/research/transportation/summaries-of-current-drowsy-driving-laws.aspx http://www.ncsl.org/research/transportation/summaries-of-cur...
  - tedmiston 10y ago
    Thanks for adding this — it looks like a couple states are settling on no sleep in 24 consecutive hours as a standard. I wonder if different regulations are being considered for individuals vs drivers for ride sharing services. The latter is more concerning to me, though both are definitely a big deal.