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A middle solution here is in order. If you buy a John Deere tractor or Cisco router you should be allowed to do whatever you want with it if you remove all of

A middle solution here is in order. If you buy a John Deere tractor or Cisco router you should be allowed to do whatever you want with it if you remove all of that companies branding from it. Leaving their brand on it confers a promise of a certain level of standardization/reliability compromised by DIY repairs/mods.

rl3 10y ago
Yeah. The painstaking removal of all branding on something you own, just so you can have the right to repair it—because it's of substandard quality in the first place. Sounds fun.
YCode 10y ago
Isn't there already a middle solution? You can do whatever you want, but you void the warranty.
- cperciva 10y ago
  The problem with "you void the warranty" is that one person voids the warranty, then sells the equipment to someone else, and that second person gets upset with John Deere when it doesn't work. On the hardware side, we have "warranty void if seal broken"; but there's no easy way for someone buying used farm equipment to know if someone messed with the software.
  - jinzo 10y ago
    Yes it is? See Chromebook for example.
    - qb45 10y ago
      What's so magical about CBs? With physical access, you can reflash the boot firmware and put unsigned OS images on them without any ugly devmode warning screens. The only alternative is complete lockout and walled garden, thankfully Google didn't go that route in this case.
      - sireat 10y ago
        Have things improved with CBs lately? I still have Acer C710 CB collecting dust. Reflashing the boot firmware was not really an option back when I checked.
        qb45 10y ago
        IDK, I have an ARM CB and here removing the devmode warning should in principle be just a matter of downloading CrOS's modified uboot, commenting few lines, building it and writing to a SPI flash on the board. At some point I even wanted to do it for fun but the flash chip seems to be hidden somewhere under heatsink and the perspective of messing with this white silicone goo for no practical gain was enough to stop me.
  - qb45 10y ago
    > The problem with "you void the warranty" is that one person voids the warranty, then sells the equipment to someone else, and that second person gets upset with John Deere when it doesn't work. No, that's an imaginary problem invented to rationalize this bullshit. I don't think there actually exist people so ignorant to not realize that buying used hardware comes with caveats and that you usually get what you paid for.
    - reitanqild 10y ago
      Based on what I read and hear about us laws and how they are enforced this might very well be a real problem there. A company I worked for decided to settle after someone broke in, stuck something in the safety switch and got injured while illegaly operating a machine we had made. The reasons were simple: 1. There were no sticker saying this was bad. (But as mentioned we had other safety measures that were deliberately overridden.) 2. While we had a fair chance of winning the costs and risks were simply not worth it. Lessons learned: if something goes to the US, make sure the stickers are in place.
      - qb45 10y ago
        A company I worked for decided to settle after someone broke in, stuck something in the safety switch and got injured while illegaly operating a machine we had made. The reasons were simple: 1. There were no sticker saying this was bad. And this shows that if Deere cared about liability and not about ripping customers off every time they need to repair something, they would use stickers instead of DRM. And you can laugh at safety stickers, but IMO they are a good thing. They mean that your responsibility is limited to providing basic safety interlocks sufficient for the intended use and informing what is and what isn't intended use. Everything else is user's problem, as it should be. I certainly prefer this over wasting manufacturers' time on elaborate idiot-proofing and then later wasting hackers' time on breaking it.
  - SomeStupidPoint 10y ago
    Why not just hash the contents of flash and see if it matches a dealer specified value? If JD had a reasonable port to the flash, it would be easy to read it out and see if your phone (or whatever) thought it had the correct image.
  - michaelmrose 10y ago
    Used equipment has always been a crap shoot that comes with few guarantees and will continue to be so for every industry in existence. The fact that used equipment repair could in theory effect the perception of the john deere brand and tangentially their future sales doesn't imply that they have a legal or moral right to prevent it.
  - acobster 10y ago
    This is why our legal system comes to the sane conclusion that a person who gets "upset with John Deere" for that reason has no legal standing because they bought it used. That's the incentive to buy the warranty.
- gambiting 10y ago
  No, it looks like John Deere can sue your ass for doing any modifications to your own tractor,since it bypasses their copyright protections and therefore in their opinion, brakes some laws. If it was as simple as losing warranty no one would care.
- PhasmaFelis 10y ago
  ...Which, under the DMCA, is a felony punishable by (according to the article) up to 5 years in prison and a $500,000 fine.
michaelmrose 10y ago
When someone proposes something ridiculous the logical response isn't to meet them halfway. The logical solution is to avoid inventing imaginary rights to brand identity. When you sell something you ought to give up the right to control how its used. If you want to rent or lease equipment you have to convince your customers to buy into that model.
acobster 10y ago
No, leaving their brand on it confers that you thought well enough of the company to pay for their product, and nothing more. Consumers have no obligation to protect any company's reputation.

rl3 10y ago

Yeah. The painstaking removal of all branding on something you own, just so you can have the right to repair it—because it's of substandard quality in the first place. Sounds fun.

YCode 10y ago

Isn't there already a middle solution? You can do whatever you want, but you void the warranty.

cperciva 10y ago
The problem with "you void the warranty" is that one person voids the warranty, then sells the equipment to someone else, and that second person gets upset with John Deere when it doesn't work. On the hardware side, we have "warranty void if seal broken"; but there's no easy way for someone buying used farm equipment to know if someone messed with the software.
- jinzo 10y ago
  Yes it is? See Chromebook for example.
  - qb45 10y ago
    What's so magical about CBs? With physical access, you can reflash the boot firmware and put unsigned OS images on them without any ugly devmode warning screens. The only alternative is complete lockout and walled garden, thankfully Google didn't go that route in this case.
    - sireat 10y ago
      Have things improved with CBs lately? I still have Acer C710 CB collecting dust. Reflashing the boot firmware was not really an option back when I checked.
      - qb45 10y ago
        IDK, I have an ARM CB and here removing the devmode warning should in principle be just a matter of downloading CrOS's modified uboot, commenting few lines, building it and writing to a SPI flash on the board. At some point I even wanted to do it for fun but the flash chip seems to be hidden somewhere under heatsink and the perspective of messing with this white silicone goo for no practical gain was enough to stop me.
- qb45 10y ago
  > The problem with "you void the warranty" is that one person voids the warranty, then sells the equipment to someone else, and that second person gets upset with John Deere when it doesn't work. No, that's an imaginary problem invented to rationalize this bullshit. I don't think there actually exist people so ignorant to not realize that buying used hardware comes with caveats and that you usually get what you paid for.
  - reitanqild 10y ago
    Based on what I read and hear about us laws and how they are enforced this might very well be a real problem there. A company I worked for decided to settle after someone broke in, stuck something in the safety switch and got injured while illegaly operating a machine we had made. The reasons were simple: 1. There were no sticker saying this was bad. (But as mentioned we had other safety measures that were deliberately overridden.) 2. While we had a fair chance of winning the costs and risks were simply not worth it. Lessons learned: if something goes to the US, make sure the stickers are in place.
    - qb45 10y ago
      A company I worked for decided to settle after someone broke in, stuck something in the safety switch and got injured while illegaly operating a machine we had made. The reasons were simple: 1. There were no sticker saying this was bad. And this shows that if Deere cared about liability and not about ripping customers off every time they need to repair something, they would use stickers instead of DRM. And you can laugh at safety stickers, but IMO they are a good thing. They mean that your responsibility is limited to providing basic safety interlocks sufficient for the intended use and informing what is and what isn't intended use. Everything else is user's problem, as it should be. I certainly prefer this over wasting manufacturers' time on elaborate idiot-proofing and then later wasting hackers' time on breaking it.
- SomeStupidPoint 10y ago
  Why not just hash the contents of flash and see if it matches a dealer specified value? If JD had a reasonable port to the flash, it would be easy to read it out and see if your phone (or whatever) thought it had the correct image.
- michaelmrose 10y ago
  Used equipment has always been a crap shoot that comes with few guarantees and will continue to be so for every industry in existence. The fact that used equipment repair could in theory effect the perception of the john deere brand and tangentially their future sales doesn't imply that they have a legal or moral right to prevent it.
- acobster 10y ago
  This is why our legal system comes to the sane conclusion that a person who gets "upset with John Deere" for that reason has no legal standing because they bought it used. That's the incentive to buy the warranty.
gambiting 10y ago
No, it looks like John Deere can sue your ass for doing any modifications to your own tractor,since it bypasses their copyright protections and therefore in their opinion, brakes some laws. If it was as simple as losing warranty no one would care.
PhasmaFelis 10y ago
...Which, under the DMCA, is a felony punishable by (according to the article) up to 5 years in prison and a $500,000 fine.

michaelmrose 10y ago

When someone proposes something ridiculous the logical response isn't to meet them halfway. The logical solution is to avoid inventing imaginary rights to brand identity. When you sell something you ought to give up the right to control how its used. If you want to rent or lease equipment you have to convince your customers to buy into that model.

acobster 10y ago

No, leaving their brand on it confers that you thought well enough of the company to pay for their product, and nothing more. Consumers have no obligation to protect any company's reputation.