4 ms·

I think it's reasonable to distinguish "union" (collective bargaining) and "professional association" (which is what I understand the SO poster is talking about

I think it's reasonable to distinguish "union" (collective bargaining) and "professional association" (which is what I understand the SO poster is talking about). It's pointless for programmers to do collective bargaining - our skills are simply too diverse. But to have a professional association that can create standard contracts, assist it's members in negotiating out of stupid IP clauses, perhaps create some certifications etc. isn't a bad idea.

_delirium 16y ago
I think there are some companies at which a "company union" (something traditional labor activism doesn't like) could be useful. Essentially, all the employees in some particular class at a particular company (say, all the electrical engineers) negotiate some subset of employment terms as a group. It helps to level the playing field, because when you're one person negotiating individually against a corporation whose managers/staff are acting collectively on the other side, you're at a bit of a disadvantage--- it's very hard to negotiate away stuff that's embedded in corporate policy (say, noncompetes) just as an individual trying to get your own contract modified. Much easier if a large group of people together threaten to leave en masse if the terms aren't changed. This can sometimes be done without a formal union though; sometimes informal employee organizations can wield enough "soft power" to get objectionable things changed, especially if it's at an employer who's sensitive to morale and image. It's a bit less of a problem if you're at a company, usually a smaller one, where you can actually negotiate one-on-one with a manager or boss who has individual authority to negotiate a wide range of terms. Then you might be able to get objectionable terms removed, if the manager's reasonable and you're willing to compromise on other things (say, accept lower pay for more favorable terms). But if the manager's highly constrained by higher-ups and policy, you don't have a real negotiation.
- yummyfajitas 16y ago
  But if the manager's highly constrained by higher-ups and policy, you don't have a real negotiation. Negotiation begins with shopping around. Any particular company may be unwilling to negotiate with you. That doesn't mean you can't negotiate, it just means you need to move on. Incidentally, big companies do respond to these issues. When people start leaving in droves, hiring policies are reviewed, and changes are made (or the company dies).

_delirium 16y ago

I think there are some companies at which a "company union" (something traditional labor activism doesn't like) could be useful. Essentially, all the employees in some particular class at a particular company (say, all the electrical engineers) negotiate some subset of employment terms as a group. It helps to level the playing field, because when you're one person negotiating individually against a corporation whose managers/staff are acting collectively on the other side, you're at a bit of a disadvantage--- it's very hard to negotiate away stuff that's embedded in corporate policy (say, noncompetes) just as an individual trying to get your own contract modified. Much easier if a large group of people together threaten to leave en masse if the terms aren't changed. This can sometimes be done without a formal union though; sometimes informal employee organizations can wield enough "soft power" to get objectionable things changed, especially if it's at an employer who's sensitive to morale and image. It's a bit less of a problem if you're at a company, usually a smaller one, where you can actually negotiate one-on-one with a manager or boss who has individual authority to negotiate a wide range of terms. Then you might be able to get objectionable terms removed, if the manager's reasonable and you're willing to compromise on other things (say, accept lower pay for more favorable terms). But if the manager's highly constrained by higher-ups and policy, you don't have a real negotiation.

yummyfajitas 16y ago
But if the manager's highly constrained by higher-ups and policy, you don't have a real negotiation. Negotiation begins with shopping around. Any particular company may be unwilling to negotiate with you. That doesn't mean you can't negotiate, it just means you need to move on. Incidentally, big companies do respond to these issues. When people start leaving in droves, hiring policies are reviewed, and changes are made (or the company dies).