4 ms·

Totally agree with you. Unions are useful for those who want to put in their '20' years and then live off of pensions, work boring jobs, or need safety guarante

by zmitri 16y ago

Totally agree with you. Unions are useful for those who want to put in their '20' years and then live off of pensions, work boring jobs, or need safety guarantees. From my experiences, programmers are dynamic, inventive, independent, and the type of people who would be willing to stay up two days straight to get done what they need to be done. Would you really want a union around to tell you how many hours a week you could work? Could you imagine a start-up hiring unionized programmers?

kiba 16y ago
sigh I wish people would stop down voting comments that they don't disagree with.
dantheman 16y ago
Union pensions & healthcare are a giant scam. Unions have completely underfunded their pensions and will go bankrupt in the not too distant future. The reason they are advocating national healthcare is that it will greatly reduce their financial burden. http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/Examiner-Opinion-Zone/Almost-half-of-top-unions-have-underfunded-pension-plans-47161957.html http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/Examiner-Opi... (just a quick link -- i once saw a great list of pensions and their obligations but can't find it now)
DougWebb 16y ago
When a programmer is willing to stay up two days straight to get done what they need to be done, that's one thing. When the programmer's company expects and demands that the programmer work 80-100 hours per week for six months at the 40 hour per week payrate because the management doesn't understand or care about estimation, scheduling, and sustainable productivity, that's another. I don't want a union that tells me I can't work more than 40 hours a week, but I wouldn't mind a union that forces my company to pay me for overtime when it's necessary. In the case of a start-up, that payment can be in the form of something deferred, like partial ownership of the company. As a start-up programmer I'm willing to take on some of the risk that the owners do, and contribute my time and effort towards making the start-up a success. But I expect to be rewarded for that too. The other thing I'd like a union for, and maybe this is more of a professional organization with some teeth, is to enforce some basic standard practices. I'm a mechanical engineer by training, and I find it appalling how seldom basic engineering practices are followed in the software development world. There's a wide variety of tools, practices, and processes in software development so I wouldn't want anything specific to be required, but some things are generic: - Use version control - Have and use a requirements definition process - Have and use an estimation process - Have and use a scheduling process that tries to keep a sustainable level of productivity - Provide developers with opportunities to improve their skills (as simple as a book budget and company time to study, up to in-house or out-of-house training) - Provide a career path, including both management and non-management tracks. (Programmers who don't want to manage shouldn't be stuck in dead-end positions.) A "professional organization with teeth" could be an organization that developers can join, which could audit employers work practices at the employers request. A positive audit could lead to a certification of that employer, which could make it easier for the employer to hire better developers from among the ranks of the organization. The organization could also provide training and certification to the developers for basic software engineering practices, relevant legal practices, etc, making them more appealing to the employers.
- anamax 16y ago
  > I wouldn't mind a union that forces my company to pay me for overtime when it's necessary. In the case of a start-up, that payment can be in the form of something deferred, like partial ownership of the company. You don't need a union to force your company to pay you overtime. You just the willingness to walk when you don't like the terms. Note that "willingness to walk" is all that the company has. > Provide a career path, including both management and non-management tracks. (Programmers who don't want to manage shouldn't be stuck in dead-end positions.) Ah yes - the geek director job, handed out as patronage. People make it to real higher positions by providing the relevant value, not by coming from a particular background. Mandating folks with a background just leads to a "make work" position.
- viggity 16y ago
  If you don't like the job because it doesn't use version control or is forcing you to work 80 hours per week, then find another job. It really is that simple. No unions required.

by zmitri 16y ago

kiba 16y ago

sigh I wish people would stop down voting comments that they don't disagree with.

dantheman 16y ago

Union pensions & healthcare are a giant scam. Unions have completely underfunded their pensions and will go bankrupt in the not too distant future. The reason they are advocating national healthcare is that it will greatly reduce their financial burden. http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/Examiner-Opinion-Zone/Almost-half-of-top-unions-have-underfunded-pension-plans-47161957.html http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/Examiner-Opi... (just a quick link -- i once saw a great list of pensions and their obligations but can't find it now)

DougWebb 16y ago

When a programmer is willing to stay up two days straight to get done what they need to be done, that's one thing. When the programmer's company expects and demands that the programmer work 80-100 hours per week for six months at the 40 hour per week payrate because the management doesn't understand or care about estimation, scheduling, and sustainable productivity, that's another. I don't want a union that tells me I can't work more than 40 hours a week, but I wouldn't mind a union that forces my company to pay me for overtime when it's necessary. In the case of a start-up, that payment can be in the form of something deferred, like partial ownership of the company. As a start-up programmer I'm willing to take on some of the risk that the owners do, and contribute my time and effort towards making the start-up a success. But I expect to be rewarded for that too. The other thing I'd like a union for, and maybe this is more of a professional organization with some teeth, is to enforce some basic standard practices. I'm a mechanical engineer by training, and I find it appalling how seldom basic engineering practices are followed in the software development world. There's a wide variety of tools, practices, and processes in software development so I wouldn't want anything specific to be required, but some things are generic: - Use version control - Have and use a requirements definition process - Have and use an estimation process - Have and use a scheduling process that tries to keep a sustainable level of productivity - Provide developers with opportunities to improve their skills (as simple as a book budget and company time to study, up to in-house or out-of-house training) - Provide a career path, including both management and non-management tracks. (Programmers who don't want to manage shouldn't be stuck in dead-end positions.) A "professional organization with teeth" could be an organization that developers can join, which could audit employers work practices at the employers request. A positive audit could lead to a certification of that employer, which could make it easier for the employer to hire better developers from among the ranks of the organization. The organization could also provide training and certification to the developers for basic software engineering practices, relevant legal practices, etc, making them more appealing to the employers.

anamax 16y ago
> I wouldn't mind a union that forces my company to pay me for overtime when it's necessary. In the case of a start-up, that payment can be in the form of something deferred, like partial ownership of the company. You don't need a union to force your company to pay you overtime. You just the willingness to walk when you don't like the terms. Note that "willingness to walk" is all that the company has. > Provide a career path, including both management and non-management tracks. (Programmers who don't want to manage shouldn't be stuck in dead-end positions.) Ah yes - the geek director job, handed out as patronage. People make it to real higher positions by providing the relevant value, not by coming from a particular background. Mandating folks with a background just leads to a "make work" position.
viggity 16y ago
If you don't like the job because it doesn't use version control or is forcing you to work 80 hours per week, then find another job. It really is that simple. No unions required.