4 ms·

This has to be one of the worst ideas I've ever heard. Unions breed laziness and rob its members of motivation to work because the union will always protect the

by viggity 16y ago

This has to be one of the worst ideas I've ever heard. Unions breed laziness and rob its members of motivation to work because the union will always protect them to the most dizzying degree. Simply look at this flowchart to see the steps required to fire a New York City teacher. It is outrageous. http://commongood.org/assets/attachments/firing_chart.pdf http://commongood.org/assets/attachments/firing_chart.pdf Unions have so much leverage over a company that they negotiate themselves out of a job. There is a reason GM went bankrupt, there is a reason the public school system is failing. Why the hell would I want to join a programmer's union?

zmitri 16y ago
Totally agree with you. Unions are useful for those who want to put in their '20' years and then live off of pensions, work boring jobs, or need safety guarantees. From my experiences, programmers are dynamic, inventive, independent, and the type of people who would be willing to stay up two days straight to get done what they need to be done. Would you really want a union around to tell you how many hours a week you could work? Could you imagine a start-up hiring unionized programmers?
- kiba 16y ago
  sigh I wish people would stop down voting comments that they don't disagree with.
- dantheman 16y ago
  Union pensions & healthcare are a giant scam. Unions have completely underfunded their pensions and will go bankrupt in the not too distant future. The reason they are advocating national healthcare is that it will greatly reduce their financial burden. http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/Examiner-Opinion-Zone/Almost-half-of-top-unions-have-underfunded-pension-plans-47161957.html http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/Examiner-Opi... (just a quick link -- i once saw a great list of pensions and their obligations but can't find it now)
- DougWebb 16y ago
  When a programmer is willing to stay up two days straight to get done what they need to be done, that's one thing. When the programmer's company expects and demands that the programmer work 80-100 hours per week for six months at the 40 hour per week payrate because the management doesn't understand or care about estimation, scheduling, and sustainable productivity, that's another. I don't want a union that tells me I can't work more than 40 hours a week, but I wouldn't mind a union that forces my company to pay me for overtime when it's necessary. In the case of a start-up, that payment can be in the form of something deferred, like partial ownership of the company. As a start-up programmer I'm willing to take on some of the risk that the owners do, and contribute my time and effort towards making the start-up a success. But I expect to be rewarded for that too. The other thing I'd like a union for, and maybe this is more of a professional organization with some teeth, is to enforce some basic standard practices. I'm a mechanical engineer by training, and I find it appalling how seldom basic engineering practices are followed in the software development world. There's a wide variety of tools, practices, and processes in software development so I wouldn't want anything specific to be required, but some things are generic: - Use version control - Have and use a requirements definition process - Have and use an estimation process - Have and use a scheduling process that tries to keep a sustainable level of productivity - Provide developers with opportunities to improve their skills (as simple as a book budget and company time to study, up to in-house or out-of-house training) - Provide a career path, including both management and non-management tracks. (Programmers who don't want to manage shouldn't be stuck in dead-end positions.) A "professional organization with teeth" could be an organization that developers can join, which could audit employers work practices at the employers request. A positive audit could lead to a certification of that employer, which could make it easier for the employer to hire better developers from among the ranks of the organization. The organization could also provide training and certification to the developers for basic software engineering practices, relevant legal practices, etc, making them more appealing to the employers.
  - anamax 16y ago
    > I wouldn't mind a union that forces my company to pay me for overtime when it's necessary. In the case of a start-up, that payment can be in the form of something deferred, like partial ownership of the company. You don't need a union to force your company to pay you overtime. You just the willingness to walk when you don't like the terms. Note that "willingness to walk" is all that the company has. > Provide a career path, including both management and non-management tracks. (Programmers who don't want to manage shouldn't be stuck in dead-end positions.) Ah yes - the geek director job, handed out as patronage. People make it to real higher positions by providing the relevant value, not by coming from a particular background. Mandating folks with a background just leads to a "make work" position.
exit 16y ago
your response seems to encompass unions in general. are you saying that workers should never have collective bargaining power in general?
eli 16y ago
Some notable unions go too far in protecting the jobs of their members... so the entire concept of unions is bad?
- dantheman 16y ago
  The entire modern conception is bad because they are granted special rights from the government. If a union was just an organization of people doing collective bargaining their would be no problems - unfortunately they want special rights and will use force to achieve them.
  - eli 16y ago
    The problem is the balance of power begins so overwhelmingly on the side of the employer. If an employer doesn't want its employees to unionize it's extraordinarily difficult for them to do so.
    - yummyfajitas 16y ago
      The only power the employer has is to offer money in return for labor. Similarly, the employee has the power to offer labor in return for money. In this regard, there is complete equality between parties. The union has the power to use threats of violence (at the hands of the government) to prevent any third parties from undercutting them. In contrast, the employer is forbidden from colluding with other employers regarding the hiring of employees. The union is permitted to withhold their services from the employer. The employer, however, is forbidden from withholding employment from the union. Near as I can tell, all a union does is shifts power completely from employers and workers into the hands of the union. Not to mention that it deprives third parties (non-union workers) of their rights.
      - stcredzero 16y ago
        The only power the employer has is to offer money in return for labor. Similarly, the employee has the power to offer labor in return for money. There are other things to be offered besides money. Unfortunately, these are often faked by employers.

by viggity 16y ago

zmitri 16y ago

Totally agree with you. Unions are useful for those who want to put in their '20' years and then live off of pensions, work boring jobs, or need safety guarantees. From my experiences, programmers are dynamic, inventive, independent, and the type of people who would be willing to stay up two days straight to get done what they need to be done. Would you really want a union around to tell you how many hours a week you could work? Could you imagine a start-up hiring unionized programmers?

kiba 16y ago
sigh I wish people would stop down voting comments that they don't disagree with.
dantheman 16y ago
Union pensions & healthcare are a giant scam. Unions have completely underfunded their pensions and will go bankrupt in the not too distant future. The reason they are advocating national healthcare is that it will greatly reduce their financial burden. http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/Examiner-Opinion-Zone/Almost-half-of-top-unions-have-underfunded-pension-plans-47161957.html http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/Examiner-Opi... (just a quick link -- i once saw a great list of pensions and their obligations but can't find it now)
DougWebb 16y ago
When a programmer is willing to stay up two days straight to get done what they need to be done, that's one thing. When the programmer's company expects and demands that the programmer work 80-100 hours per week for six months at the 40 hour per week payrate because the management doesn't understand or care about estimation, scheduling, and sustainable productivity, that's another. I don't want a union that tells me I can't work more than 40 hours a week, but I wouldn't mind a union that forces my company to pay me for overtime when it's necessary. In the case of a start-up, that payment can be in the form of something deferred, like partial ownership of the company. As a start-up programmer I'm willing to take on some of the risk that the owners do, and contribute my time and effort towards making the start-up a success. But I expect to be rewarded for that too. The other thing I'd like a union for, and maybe this is more of a professional organization with some teeth, is to enforce some basic standard practices. I'm a mechanical engineer by training, and I find it appalling how seldom basic engineering practices are followed in the software development world. There's a wide variety of tools, practices, and processes in software development so I wouldn't want anything specific to be required, but some things are generic: - Use version control - Have and use a requirements definition process - Have and use an estimation process - Have and use a scheduling process that tries to keep a sustainable level of productivity - Provide developers with opportunities to improve their skills (as simple as a book budget and company time to study, up to in-house or out-of-house training) - Provide a career path, including both management and non-management tracks. (Programmers who don't want to manage shouldn't be stuck in dead-end positions.) A "professional organization with teeth" could be an organization that developers can join, which could audit employers work practices at the employers request. A positive audit could lead to a certification of that employer, which could make it easier for the employer to hire better developers from among the ranks of the organization. The organization could also provide training and certification to the developers for basic software engineering practices, relevant legal practices, etc, making them more appealing to the employers.
- anamax 16y ago
  > I wouldn't mind a union that forces my company to pay me for overtime when it's necessary. In the case of a start-up, that payment can be in the form of something deferred, like partial ownership of the company. You don't need a union to force your company to pay you overtime. You just the willingness to walk when you don't like the terms. Note that "willingness to walk" is all that the company has. > Provide a career path, including both management and non-management tracks. (Programmers who don't want to manage shouldn't be stuck in dead-end positions.) Ah yes - the geek director job, handed out as patronage. People make it to real higher positions by providing the relevant value, not by coming from a particular background. Mandating folks with a background just leads to a "make work" position.

exit 16y ago

your response seems to encompass unions in general. are you saying that workers should never have collective bargaining power in general?

eli 16y ago

Some notable unions go too far in protecting the jobs of their members... so the entire concept of unions is bad?

dantheman 16y ago
The entire modern conception is bad because they are granted special rights from the government. If a union was just an organization of people doing collective bargaining their would be no problems - unfortunately they want special rights and will use force to achieve them.
- eli 16y ago
  The problem is the balance of power begins so overwhelmingly on the side of the employer. If an employer doesn't want its employees to unionize it's extraordinarily difficult for them to do so.
  - yummyfajitas 16y ago
    The only power the employer has is to offer money in return for labor. Similarly, the employee has the power to offer labor in return for money. In this regard, there is complete equality between parties. The union has the power to use threats of violence (at the hands of the government) to prevent any third parties from undercutting them. In contrast, the employer is forbidden from colluding with other employers regarding the hiring of employees. The union is permitted to withhold their services from the employer. The employer, however, is forbidden from withholding employment from the union. Near as I can tell, all a union does is shifts power completely from employers and workers into the hands of the union. Not to mention that it deprives third parties (non-union workers) of their rights.
    - stcredzero 16y ago
      The only power the employer has is to offer money in return for labor. Similarly, the employee has the power to offer labor in return for money. There are other things to be offered besides money. Unfortunately, these are often faked by employers.