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I see this sort of thing on Hacker News all the time. Programmers that are, I'm sure, the top of their field comment in threads about biology or something out

I see this sort of thing on Hacker News all the time. Programmers that are, I'm sure, the top of their field comment in threads about biology or something out of their field with the most silly and wrong answers. A thread about nutrition or something out of their realm of expertise on here is about as useful as reading a Facebook or YouTube comment chain. That doesn't stop them from speaking authoritatively about it. :)

kuschku 10y ago
Luckily most of the people here, if they wanted, could easily get an entry-level education in any field, because they know how to study from books, can get access to the material, etc.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- coldtea 10y ago
  Potential is not reality.
  - kuschku 10y ago
    Potential is the requirement for democracy, though. You can only have democracy if everyone has the chance to educate themselves on the topics that are relevant to them. If, in your country, the majority never learnt how to do so, then democracy will inevitably fail. Many people in STEM or other sciences have an advantage due to that, but this should be standard for all.
- EliRivers 10y ago
  Why would I? Surely the point is that I'm an expert on everything already.
- louithethrid 10y ago
  Oh, yes, its so easy, thats why every programmer aquiring domain specific knowledge never makes any mistake and the software - once feature complete, always guarantees satisfied customers. We are instant experts, just add hot water and stire for five minutes.
  - alexbecker 10y ago
    I don't see the need for this much snark in response to a relatively innocuous comment.
    - louithethrid 10y ago
      Yes, i was over-shooting, because i had that attitude myself - and this is not innocuous . This hybris ruins lifes. Better snarky here, then Snarky out there, at the end of project, when it really hurts.
  - kuschku 10y ago
    No. I am saying, the people here could actually make qualified comments, if they wanted to. They could learn about the topics they comment on. But they choose not to. Which is a different story from most of humanity, which doesn’t even have a choice, doesn’t have a chance to learn.
shouldbworking 10y ago
This happens on HN within our field too :) . I see stuff hit the front page all the time, only to be ripped to pieces a few hours later when someone that knows what they're doing appears. Do you remember the "super fast hash algorithm" from a few weeks ago that turned out to be rubbish? What about the "high performance TCP proxy" on the front page right now that's not proxying correctly or with unusual speed? People seem to upvote on title alone
- krapp 10y ago
  >Do you remember the "super fast hash algorithm" from a few weeks ago that turned out to be rubbish? What about the "high performance TCP proxy" on the front page right now that's not proxying correctly or with unusual speed? Seems like debunking Hacker News stories might make for a fun project.
  - deathhand 10y ago
    Double points if it can be automated!
  - pavel_lishin 10y ago
    I suspect your definition of "fun" may align with a very small percentage of the population.
    - krapp 10y ago
      I can confirm this to be the case.
sotojuan 10y ago
For some reason, computer nerds think they know it all :-)
- wernercd 10y ago
  Good ones don't... just like any field... "Intelligent" people know how much they don't know... "Stupid" or "ignorant" know everything and want you to know it. Doctors, Mechanics, ... nerds... no one group is immune to this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect "The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which low-ability individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly assessing their ability as much higher than it really is. Psychologists David Dunning and Justin Kruger attributed this bias to a metacognitive incapacity, on the part of those with low ability, to recognize their ineptitude and evaluate their competence accurately. Their research also suggests corollaries: high-ability individuals may underestimate their relative competence and may erroneously assume that tasks which are easy for them are also easy for others."
  - EliRivers 10y ago
    With warning of anecdote rather than evidence, Doctors are the worst [1] for this! So many of them seem to think they're scientists, when the majority of them are far from it. [1] In the hyperbolic sense; I wouldn't like to suggest a literal truth here
    - icantdrive55 10y ago
      "Just highly trained mechanics." Dr. Dean Edell I always felt that was unfair to most mechanics, but he trying was proving a point. The mechanics I know can't claim, "Oh, it's an art too?". And--yes I understand the human body is more complex. I'm talking about being dragged in for refills. Dancing around those huge egos. Blah, etc. And watch Trump give them tort reform. I wanted it for years. Now--I think they might abuse the privelege? My beef is not just Docters. It's the AMA. Its their Lobbiests. It's the money side of the career.
    - 10y ago
awarer 10y ago
Well, in regards to the article I think experimentation should be cheered and not tossed away as stupidity. Wheeler isn't actually a good example of this effect. Creating environments where people, especially people with the correct answers, are not afraid to voice their sincere opinions without the fear of being called or looked at as stupid is what is needed. Experts today, are now challenged, by persons who are incorrect and correct. An authority usually tries to shut up both as if the two were the same. "something out of their realm of expertise on here is about as useful as reading a Facebook or YouTube comment chain." Casting aside the clear flaw there (which YT, FB chains?), I'd bet on HN against the general public because people here are more likely scientifically minded and therefore self-correcting. "That doesn't stop them from speaking authoritatively about it. :)" This effect should only really matter when it comes to an individual having authority (decisions or influence) over others.
the_af 10y ago
Haha! So true. And nutrition in particular seems to be something the tech-literate crowd seems to want to "hack". It's always fascinating to read threads in HN about dietary supplements or keto-this-or-that or paleo diets or how it's better if you only sleep 2 hours per day total and only drink special shakes made by some dodgy startup, all of this frequently debated with religious reverence.
- teach 10y ago
  My wife is a dietitian with a PhD, and I can scarcely stand to read HN comments on nutrition articles. And I'm not the one with the degree!
- Qwertious 10y ago
  Nutrition makes a lot of sense, when you consider just how much time the average person spends around food - you're generally reminded of nutrition three times a day. It's a large aspect of health, money, and comfort (see: going to the toilet), and frankly there isn't very thorough consensus (it's been suggested that the food pyramid is biased by commercial interests of the time), and what's more, most people aren't cooking or paying for their own meals when they learn about it in school, so they don't remember it that well anyway.
  - the_af 10y ago
    Indeed, it makes sense to be interested in nutrition. What's funny is that most people commenting here on HN are out of their depths and talk about nutrition, supplements, bizarre shakes, fad diets, keto, calorie restriction or whatnot with the same pseudoscientific beliefs as other non-HN people discuss astrology ("but it really works!"). They "don't know that they don't know" and believe the most bizarre things. That's very relevant to the article and also to the OP's comment at the top of this subthread :) PS: lest I sound too arrogant, nutrition is not my particular blind spot (I'm aware I don't know much about it), but I'm sure I have other blind spots I'm not aware of!
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
nabla9 10y ago
Nutrition, science news and economics are the worst subjects for discussion in HN. I'm cautiously optimistic because I see multiple levels ignorance that was me 5,10,15,20,25 years ago. I'm sure someone sees my comments the same way. Even if the the average quality of discussion stays at the same low level in HN as it was in Usenet long time ago, it's not the same people making the same stupid comments over and over again. There may be personal development. I don't believe that one person keeps posting "correlation is not causality" comment to every science news discussion for 10 years without good reason. It's just a phase after learning statistics, I hope.
mxfh 10y ago
I think, in my ignorance, that this is a deeply human desire to understand the world or at least parts of it. If there is a simpler, less complex concept you can grasp it's always something that appeals to some. And also there is a need for belonging and FOMO, so if you find a nice subculture that appeals to you and is graspable in it's complexity, it's way easier to stay informed and connected in that, than a more general topic. Specialisation is indeed is the only way to understand something to the state of the art for more than two centuries or so now, since it's humanly impossible to have a working understanding of the whole of human knowledge.

kuschku 10y ago

Luckily most of the people here, if they wanted, could easily get an entry-level education in any field, because they know how to study from books, can get access to the material, etc.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
coldtea 10y ago
Potential is not reality.
- kuschku 10y ago
  Potential is the requirement for democracy, though. You can only have democracy if everyone has the chance to educate themselves on the topics that are relevant to them. If, in your country, the majority never learnt how to do so, then democracy will inevitably fail. Many people in STEM or other sciences have an advantage due to that, but this should be standard for all.
EliRivers 10y ago
Why would I? Surely the point is that I'm an expert on everything already.
louithethrid 10y ago
Oh, yes, its so easy, thats why every programmer aquiring domain specific knowledge never makes any mistake and the software - once feature complete, always guarantees satisfied customers. We are instant experts, just add hot water and stire for five minutes.
- alexbecker 10y ago
  I don't see the need for this much snark in response to a relatively innocuous comment.
  - louithethrid 10y ago
    Yes, i was over-shooting, because i had that attitude myself - and this is not innocuous . This hybris ruins lifes. Better snarky here, then Snarky out there, at the end of project, when it really hurts.
- kuschku 10y ago
  No. I am saying, the people here could actually make qualified comments, if they wanted to. They could learn about the topics they comment on. But they choose not to. Which is a different story from most of humanity, which doesn’t even have a choice, doesn’t have a chance to learn.

shouldbworking 10y ago

This happens on HN within our field too :) . I see stuff hit the front page all the time, only to be ripped to pieces a few hours later when someone that knows what they're doing appears. Do you remember the "super fast hash algorithm" from a few weeks ago that turned out to be rubbish? What about the "high performance TCP proxy" on the front page right now that's not proxying correctly or with unusual speed? People seem to upvote on title alone

krapp 10y ago
>Do you remember the "super fast hash algorithm" from a few weeks ago that turned out to be rubbish? What about the "high performance TCP proxy" on the front page right now that's not proxying correctly or with unusual speed? Seems like debunking Hacker News stories might make for a fun project.
- deathhand 10y ago
  Double points if it can be automated!
- pavel_lishin 10y ago
  I suspect your definition of "fun" may align with a very small percentage of the population.
  - krapp 10y ago
    I can confirm this to be the case.

sotojuan 10y ago

For some reason, computer nerds think they know it all :-)

wernercd 10y ago
Good ones don't... just like any field... "Intelligent" people know how much they don't know... "Stupid" or "ignorant" know everything and want you to know it. Doctors, Mechanics, ... nerds... no one group is immune to this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect "The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which low-ability individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly assessing their ability as much higher than it really is. Psychologists David Dunning and Justin Kruger attributed this bias to a metacognitive incapacity, on the part of those with low ability, to recognize their ineptitude and evaluate their competence accurately. Their research also suggests corollaries: high-ability individuals may underestimate their relative competence and may erroneously assume that tasks which are easy for them are also easy for others."
- EliRivers 10y ago
  With warning of anecdote rather than evidence, Doctors are the worst [1] for this! So many of them seem to think they're scientists, when the majority of them are far from it. [1] In the hyperbolic sense; I wouldn't like to suggest a literal truth here
  - icantdrive55 10y ago
    "Just highly trained mechanics." Dr. Dean Edell I always felt that was unfair to most mechanics, but he trying was proving a point. The mechanics I know can't claim, "Oh, it's an art too?". And--yes I understand the human body is more complex. I'm talking about being dragged in for refills. Dancing around those huge egos. Blah, etc. And watch Trump give them tort reform. I wanted it for years. Now--I think they might abuse the privelege? My beef is not just Docters. It's the AMA. Its their Lobbiests. It's the money side of the career.
  - 10y ago

awarer 10y ago

Well, in regards to the article I think experimentation should be cheered and not tossed away as stupidity. Wheeler isn't actually a good example of this effect. Creating environments where people, especially people with the correct answers, are not afraid to voice their sincere opinions without the fear of being called or looked at as stupid is what is needed. Experts today, are now challenged, by persons who are incorrect and correct. An authority usually tries to shut up both as if the two were the same. "something out of their realm of expertise on here is about as useful as reading a Facebook or YouTube comment chain." Casting aside the clear flaw there (which YT, FB chains?), I'd bet on HN against the general public because people here are more likely scientifically minded and therefore self-correcting. "That doesn't stop them from speaking authoritatively about it. :)" This effect should only really matter when it comes to an individual having authority (decisions or influence) over others.

the_af 10y ago

Haha! So true. And nutrition in particular seems to be something the tech-literate crowd seems to want to "hack". It's always fascinating to read threads in HN about dietary supplements or keto-this-or-that or paleo diets or how it's better if you only sleep 2 hours per day total and only drink special shakes made by some dodgy startup, all of this frequently debated with religious reverence.

teach 10y ago
My wife is a dietitian with a PhD, and I can scarcely stand to read HN comments on nutrition articles. And I'm not the one with the degree!
Qwertious 10y ago
Nutrition makes a lot of sense, when you consider just how much time the average person spends around food - you're generally reminded of nutrition three times a day. It's a large aspect of health, money, and comfort (see: going to the toilet), and frankly there isn't very thorough consensus (it's been suggested that the food pyramid is biased by commercial interests of the time), and what's more, most people aren't cooking or paying for their own meals when they learn about it in school, so they don't remember it that well anyway.
- the_af 10y ago
  Indeed, it makes sense to be interested in nutrition. What's funny is that most people commenting here on HN are out of their depths and talk about nutrition, supplements, bizarre shakes, fad diets, keto, calorie restriction or whatnot with the same pseudoscientific beliefs as other non-HN people discuss astrology ("but it really works!"). They "don't know that they don't know" and believe the most bizarre things. That's very relevant to the article and also to the OP's comment at the top of this subthread :) PS: lest I sound too arrogant, nutrition is not my particular blind spot (I'm aware I don't know much about it), but I'm sure I have other blind spots I'm not aware of!

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

nabla9 10y ago

Nutrition, science news and economics are the worst subjects for discussion in HN. I'm cautiously optimistic because I see multiple levels ignorance that was me 5,10,15,20,25 years ago. I'm sure someone sees my comments the same way. Even if the the average quality of discussion stays at the same low level in HN as it was in Usenet long time ago, it's not the same people making the same stupid comments over and over again. There may be personal development. I don't believe that one person keeps posting "correlation is not causality" comment to every science news discussion for 10 years without good reason. It's just a phase after learning statistics, I hope.

mxfh 10y ago

I think, in my ignorance, that this is a deeply human desire to understand the world or at least parts of it. If there is a simpler, less complex concept you can grasp it's always something that appeals to some. And also there is a need for belonging and FOMO, so if you find a nice subculture that appeals to you and is graspable in it's complexity, it's way easier to stay informed and connected in that, than a more general topic. Specialisation is indeed is the only way to understand something to the state of the art for more than two centuries or so now, since it's humanly impossible to have a working understanding of the whole of human knowledge.